The definition of Recreational Diving vs. Technical.

[Deep South Divers]

It does have to do with stocking gear that sells v. gear that doesn't sell. Is that a sin?

Of course not. But what sells is up to you and your recommendations and the way that your shop trains people.

You live in one environment, but there is a huge portion of the world that does not have access to great local diving crawling with tech divers.

I live in South Carolina, and I dive almost exclusively here. There are no "tech" divers here either. My first exposure to "tech" as you call it was right here on Scubaboard.

Curious to learn more about what they were talking about, I scheduled a dive with them just as you did. They were my first exposure to mindsets, skill sets, and gear that I had never seen before, except online.

...So you'd think I'd be empathetic to your situation, but here it is, years later and I'm only frustrated that I was not taught this way from the outset. I took what I could get... Like you. I then had to relearn everything.

In my area, the tech divers drive all the way to Santa Rosa, New Mexico for their diving. When they are there, they go to a site on private property that is pretty much open to only a relative handful of tech divers--no recreational divers watching.

When I learned these skills and mindset and philosophies and gear configurations, I adopted them. My daily dives rarely exceed 30 feet - to get deeper requires a drive of many hours and/or a boat ride of many hours. Essentially, I am diving in a very "untech" situation, yet I have found all of the above to be great advantages in all of my diving - whether I'm cleaning a boat or buried miles back in a cave.

In fact, they are apparent - and very useful - when I dove in the public eye at the South Carolina and Georgia Aquariums.

See, I apologize, but you're not going to convince me that "tech" is "tech" and "rec" is "rec," no matter how you define it. The skills, the mindset, the gear and the configurations are applicable in all diving - whether it's 5' under a boat scraping barnacles, repairing a tank at the Georgia Aquarium, doing a show at the SC Aquarium, or in a wreck or on a reef, regardless of depth.

...And that's not "elitist." I'm sorry if it appears that way. There is nothing special about me or my diving. That's what all of us "tech" divers are trying to tell you. There is nothing special about our water, our location, or even our abilities. I would be an egoist to tell you that there was, and while tempting for the sake of chest-pounding, is a lie.

Only "rec" divers differentiate.

For what it's worth, many parts of this "tech" mindset are most difficult in shallow water... So if you're lacking deep water or caves or wrecks because you're landlocked, you're in a great place to learn.

Please don't misquote me. It was the most advanced they had seen, not the most advanced in Truk. There were no serious restrictions to navigate. Next, and this is the part I really want to get across--I am sure none of them had ever seen a rig with a long hose and didn't realize it was considered important. That is my point about awareness--they really didn't know any better.

...And that's not their fault. It's this shortcoming that I would like to address. That is YOUR JOB - to get them TO know better.

For what it's worth, my PADI Advanced Open Water manual showed a long hose configuration in a sketch, page 8, circa 2002 or so. I don't know if today's AOW manual shows a sketch of it, but if so, then I am not empathetic towards the idea that they've never seen it before. If it's there and they've never seen it before, either they didn't read it or it wasn't covered by the instructor... And that's not right.

Of course they can. I can, too. But if they want to sell it through the shop, they have to have an workable agreement with the dealer.

Why? Last I looked at the dealer price sheets (I had the chance to go to DEMA this year, and several years ago I had the opportunity to help a friend build a dive shop), I was less than impressed with the "deals" that dive shops receive. There is nothing saying that a dive shop can't find it's own supplier and retail gear that has not been gotten through a "dealer." Again, if I can purchase a Suunto D6 from Singapore for $450, why does a dive shop pay $800 from the "dealer?" If you're finding the supply too restrictive with prices and policies, then it's time to find another supply.

C'mon, man... This is freshman level business courses at any credible college... And Leisurepro's business model. Clearly, it's working... When most dive shops are closing down.

That's what I said. When we first started Tech, they finally decided to go with Salvo as a supplier. By agreement, they had to make a huge initial purchase and guarantee a certain amount in annual sales.

Did you make that agreement with Salvo, or someone claiming to be a "manufacturer's rep?" Salvo sells me lights if I simply pay for them. Well, used to when the company was alive. Sure, I paid full price, but there's nothing that says that any manufacturer wouldn't discount progressively the more gear you purchased. I would think that in today's recessed economy, a manufacturer would be thrilled to do this for you. I also don't think that customers would be too price sensitive if the shop that they bought had slightly higher prices, but serviced gear, allowed "tryouts," and was genuinely helpful in pointing clients toward quality gear.

I was part of that first purchase, buying more than I could afford to help make up the initial purchase requirement.

I have a buddy who works for a dive shop that is doing exactly the same thing right now. It simply makes no sense. Since when does "minimum purchases" and "dealer discounts" become more important than the item being purchased, especially when it comes to life support systems?

When Salvo went under, a new supplier was needed. I sat with the buyer and we talked. She told me what the Dive Rite requirements were, etc. and said they could not afford to purchase that much inventory without a sense that it was going to get sold eventually. If you are in South Florida, it's no problem. Here that inventory would just sit on the shelves.

Same here. What does this have to do with the gear you purchase? Stock your store with the gear that you feel good recommending, and teach it. Stop worrying about what a "manufacturer's rep" tells you can't be done. FYI - the "manufacturer's rep" isn't. They're a totally seperate company that purchases annually en masse, then resells to you. He's a middleman. If his policies are preventive, then fire him.

We got a great benefit when XS Scuba started buying up a lot of little companies--it gave them the ability to buy some of that stuff.

Newsflash: You have the "ability" to buy anything you want. As long as your money is green, they'll take it. Teach whatever you want, then recommend whatever you want. Your students will buy what you tell them is good gear... And a BC and split fins and octos and rediculously-priced dive computers aren't. Sure, they'll suffice to get someone in the water, but in all, they suck.

Then they went with UTD for their equipment and found what it was like to work with a company that essentially undersells its own vendors. I got a discount on purchases--20% over dealer cost. I wanted a more powerful primary light and sat down with the buyer and the UTD catalog to see what I could get. I saw the exact dealer price in the catalog, so I know I was not getting hosed. With my 20% over dealer cost discount through the shop, I would have had to pay more than it would have cost me to buy the light I wanted if I paid full retail at the UTD web site.

There is absolutely no excuse for this. Fire that guy. I mean, take him out to lunch, film it, and stand up in a public place and say, "You're fired, you *******. You're what's wrong with this industry." I don't know why you put up with this. Then call the manufacturer and tell them what just happened. I am confident that the manufacturer would rather sell their product than be held hostage by a middleman.

A dive shop cannot survive on a <20% margin for its highest priced items.

I'm aware of what it takes to run a retail store. I have many years' experience and a degree on the wall. The way I see it, you have the ability to solve the problem, but won't. I predict that the reason is a nasty little word called, "consignment." Buy your own supply and quit being a slave to the "manufacturer's rep." It's amazing how quickly goods will fly off the shelves if you paid cold, hard cash for them.

Hoses were never a problem. Anyone can get hoses of any length easily.

Okay, and since a long hose primary was or is displayed in the PADI AOW manual, and it's clearly safer to dive wreck dives in Truk using one, why are you teaching something else?

I'm sure I paid top dollar for my first 7' hose when I bought one... Why, when I could have gotten them at "any" shop? Because the people that I trusted worked there - they knew what they were doing, how to use it, and trained me on it. By the way, that shop, too, is growing in the middle of a recession, when most dive shops are closing. What's the difference?

Here is the equipment sales page for a local shop. See any tech suppliers there? If they want to sell BP/Ws, canister lights, etc., they are going to have to get new suppliers.

...And jeez, that would be horrible, since the ones you have now are obviously treating you so well.

As I said, the most well known of those have minimum purchase requirements that a shop in Florida or Seattle or San Diego can meet easily, but here in the heartland it isn't happening.

It doesn't happen here, either. I don't own a shop... Yet I sell backplates, wings, webbing, bungie, bolt snaps, fins, and all kinds of "tech" gear to people who I get the opportunity to dive with. Since I buy rolls of webbing, for example, from Dive Gear Express (and I pay full retail for the roll), I have plenty to sell when someone says to me, "Wow... That's cool. Where can I buy that?" Demo it, show it, teach it, and guess what? People will see for themselves what works best and will want to buy. Hell, I don't even have a retail store...

Not long ago, Dive Gear Express offered me 10% off of all of my purchases. Add that to the markup that I was already making, and the fact that I don't have a store to pay for, and guess what? I'm making money on webbing.

These concepts that you're touting are excuses that have been told to you. They're all just that - excuses. Nothing more, nothing less. Meanwhile, you're teaching people something other than the best, safest, and most versitile way to dive.

...And while your excuse of "not knowing any better" may work for those who don't know this stuff, you clearly do... And if not, then I've just told you. You have no excuse now.

The shops don't sell the tech gear because they don't think there is enough market for it.

Well, the shop owner can and should make that call. Heck, if he feels that tires or electronics would sell better, then it's his right to sell that instead. But I suspect that the reason why bp/wings, long hoses, deco bottles, and Jet fins don't sell is because the clients don't know to ask for them. It's your job to educate them about diving - they'll buy what you recommend. That's the difference between "selling" gear and "clerking" gear. That's the reason why you're working in a dive shop and not at Mickey D's... Because you're supposed to be capable of sharing your knowlege and helping the client to make an educated, well-informed decision. The fact that you know about "tech" gear and opt instead to sell them beach toys is your own fault.

...And I know that's harsh, and probably offensive and probably viewed by you as "elitist." Hey, if you don't want to know the truth, then don't read... 'Cause I have no motivation to lie to you, and I find it degrading and I don't enjoy doing it... So I'm gonna tell you the truth.

You can say it's a chicken-egg thing, but if your existence depended upon reading the market correctly and not making costly purchases that aren't going to sell, you might be afraid to take a chance as well.

By you choosing to continue to do business this way despite the fact that you are fully aware that there's better gear and better training available, you are taking a chance. Historically, those shops that deal with these middlemen get squeezed to the point of going out of business. I don't understand why you continue down a path of destruction and choose to "take a chance" and continue to teach abbreviated classes using abbreviated gear and gear configurations that are inadequate for the dives that you are doing.

These penetration dives in a wreck in Truk... You never answered my question if you were using singles or doubles. I already know the answer, obviously, if you were in "jacket style BCs" as you mentioned. Diving singles in a wreck penetration dive (or any overhead) is... Unsafe.

Does it not occur to you that by neglecting basic concepts, which many of us are telling you is not "tech," you're taking a huge chance?

To give you an idea of how vastly popular tech is here, in the last few months two shops in our area have shut down. One was very much involved with tech, and the other was borderline tech

Stop it. There is no "tech."

(I never used it, so I am not really sure how much). A third shop, the one I used to work with, stopped dealing with tech because it was losing money on it. In the case of the shop that went out of business, an independent tech instructor who lives about an hour north of here bought their compressor and is trying to figure out a way to set things up so that those of us who need helium fills can get it done. Once he has it, that's where I will be getting my helium fills.

Ever heard of "rec triox?" Point being - helium doesn't mean "tech" any more than a bp/wing means "tech" or a long hose means "tech."

You can't point them down that road if you don't know where it is--or if you yourself don't think it's the right road.

Right. And therein lies the real problem... YOUR mindset. The INSTRUCTOR'S mindset. The LDS's mindset. This isn't about market trends or suppliers or what the customer wants - they're relying on your advice. This is a problem with YOUR thinking. YOU have made the distinction between "rec" and "tech," and no amount of anything I say or change in the industry is going to correct that. Only YOU can change your mindset.

 

[lamont]

lamot, I am not a he

whooooouuuups...

 

[Deep South Divers]

whooooouuuups...

It's okay. Many of us have done it. She seems to enjoy it, 'cause she does nothing to differentiate herself, like use a photo as an avatar or sig with something that might give you a hint... You'd think that after someone has done that to her for the 100th time, she'd do something about it.

...And before she goes and flames me and tells me that it doesn't bother her to be called a "he," let me just point out that if it didn't bother her, she wouldn't correct all of us who have called her "he."

I think she should differentiate herself as female if it bothers her. If it doesn't, then she shouldn't continually paint others into a corner and then make them feel bad when they get the pronoun wrong.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

It's okay. Many of us have done it. She seems to enjoy it, 'cause she does nothing to differentiate herself, like use a photo as an avatar or sig with something that might give you a hint... You'd think that after someone has done that to her for the 100th time, she'd do something.

...And before she goes and flames me and tells me that it doesn't bother her to be called a "he," let me just point out that if it didn't bother her, she wouldn't correct all of us who have called her "he."

I think she should differentiate herself as female if it bothers her. If it doesn't, then she shouldn't continually paint others into a corner and then make them feel bad when they get the pronoun wrong.

Proper forum conduct would be one of two courses of action;

Best Choice: click on member name, click on view profile, click on about me, read gender!

Other Choice: do not use gender when you do not know gender!

By simply saying "Sas says this" or "Sas says that" then at least "gender" will not be wrong.

 

[lamont]

Best Choice: click on member name, click on view profile, click on about me, read gender!

sorry to offend the entire internet, but none of you are worth that much of my time to click around that much...

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Hence the reason for the second choice.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Since many of us have made this mistske with SAS, I eould say the the problem lies with the common denominator... SAS.

Take steps to resolve the issue that we have all had, or don't... Wr don't care. But if you don't fix it, don't be surprised when it happens again.

It's rude to continually set up people like that, then attempt to make them feel bad when they make the same mistake that everyone else does.

And no, hale, we're not going to go out of our way to do all this research into a person before replying to them... Nor are we going to speak to them without using a pronoun, as if they were a third party and not present.

SAS can either deal with the problem or fix it. The issue isn't mine, lamonts, any of a dozen others that have made the same mistake, nor the next person's that will make the mistake if she doesn't do something to change it.

It upsets me that she seems to enjoy making others feel bad when they make the mistake.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

How hard is it to type "Sas said this" or "Sas said that"???

Kind of relevant to a recent popular thread.

Hard to imagine anyone has to ask ...

Why are we so mean?