Agreed! It's so refreshing to be able to talk to someone about this who does see the "fence." Typically, by now, people with the LDS mindset and the person with the "there is no gap" mindset would be involved in a flame war.
I'm genuinely enjoying this conversation, and it's got everthing to do with your ability to put together your thoughts in a succinct, organized manner. Thank you!
One of the problems we all face is like the parable of the blind men and the elephant. The dive industry has characteristics that we each see through our own eyes. What Bob, Lynne, and Peter see in the Seattle area is decidedly different from what I see in Colorado. My response is therefore limited by what I experience here and on vacations, and what I read on sites like ScubaBoard. Others may experience something very different. What follows are thoughts that are based upon the parts of the elephant I have seen.
Same here.
I must admit, though, that the thought process of things being so different from geographical setting to geographical setting sounds alarmingly like the "around here" diver that I explained in a previous post... And that's not a good thing.
You said, "I cant imagine that the LDS wouldnt like to see more of their new students supplied with better gear, better training, and a better, safer mindset." In my experience, the people who are selling OW instruction and typical recreational gear believe they are selling the best gear and training already.
I don't understand that thought process. How can they feel that way if they're out and diving at all? The moment they run into someone who dives what they would call "tech," don't they begin to wonder what's up with that? I mean, can't they see the nailed buoyancy, the careful planning, the streamlined configuration, and the extraordinary ability to do dives that they would never consider? I would think that the differences would be obvious the moment that they saw a "tech" diver dive.
It was for me.
They think tech diving is OK for people going into caves and such, but that is not what they see in their shops, and why should they stock gear for people who are not their customers. When I went to Truk, we did the most advanced wreck diving any of them had ever seen, diving that was plenty safe in jacket BCDs and conventional regulator setups.
Penetration dives without a long hose? What would have happened had one diver experienced an OOG while in the wreck? How would two divers been able to exit any sort of restriction? With all due respect, how could this be considered "equally safe?"
How did y'all get doubles on an LDS "jacket" BC? Did you not do "the most advanced wreck diving they'd ever seen in Truk" in doubles? If not, how can you say that it was "equally safe" in singles? Without a redundant first stage and a manifold and the additional gas from a second tank, how could that be "equally safe" in an overhead environment?
When I was doing some tech practice in the pool, some of the most experienced shop employees/instructors asked me to explain my gear set up to them, telling them why I did it that way. They had never seen it before. To succeed, you will need to convince these people that the changes you want them to undertake are worth the effort of undertaking them.
Well, I know that this may qualify me as the kind of scuba snob that you were referring to earlier, but I really don't care if they ("recreational divers") make changes or not. I am not motivated to get them to make changes. I'm perfectly happy doing dives that they won't, because they see this huge gap in "rec" vs. "tech."
My only interest in any of this is my expressed concern for what the LDS ("recreational community") seems to be teaching, and what I consider safe, healthy, and limitless diving. So I'm not motivated to make the divers change... I'm only interested in addressing the shortcomings in what is the most popular dive training in the world.
One key step is awareness.
Agreed, although with the internet and enough "tech" divers at the local dive sites to make "rec" divers curious, I have a tough time understanding how they are not aware... Or how LDS personnel like yourself can possibly think that it's safe to do the "most advanced wreck diving in Truk" in a jacket bc, a single tank (since I don't know of a jacket BC that allows the use of doubles) and in the absence of a long hose primary, a prerequisite to exiting a restriction in an OOG.
Another step is access to the equipment. Even when my old shop was trying to ramp up its tech efforts, I struggled to buy my gear from them. There were things they could not sell because their suppliers did not sell them and they could not afford the contract needed to get a new supplier. It is even worse with the shop with which I work now--I will find very few shopping options through them. Even though I get an employee discount for any company the store sells, I suspect I will still have to make most of my future purchases online. But that is changing. Mainstream suppliers are starting to produce tech equipment. New companies are producing tech equipment, and the competition is driving prices down.
Okay, that I can not understand at all. Please explain this to me.
Why am I, as a non-dive industry professional, able to access things like backplates and wings, long hoses, can lights, Jet fins, and "tech" training while they are not? That's baloney. If I, as the consumer, can get this stuff, they can too.
I suspect that what you really mean is that they can not get this stuff "factory authorized," or at a substantial enough discount to be able to make money on it. I can accept that... But that's a pricing issue and/or profit issue, not a "supply" issue.
When I purchased my first long hose, I bought it from Extreme Exposure in High Springs, FL. I don't remember if I had to drive down there (5 hours each way), or I ordered it online/by phone and had it shipped. I'd have paid $20 more for the thing if it was available at my LDS and they'd been able to show it to me and show me how to use it. At current prices, that's a 60% profit margin on that item. That, to me, works just fine as a business model, and beats not being able to help the customer at all. That whole transaction could have happened just fine had my LDS bought from them without any discount whatsoever.
This example shows that yes, the LDS could have this stuff in their stores just fine, even without the "factory authorized" status or consignment situation. This whole idea of "our suppliers don't supply it" is a complete copout. If that's true, then get another supplier. Or find another supply option. What's the problem?
After all, that's what I do if my normal supply option - the LDS - doesn't have what I need. Apparently you do, too, even though you work for the LDS. Why is the LDS not doing this? Why isn't the LDS on Cavediver.net and Scubaboard.com and eBay, finding good deals on low-priced and new or nearly new "tech" gear?
...And before you say that the customers aren't asking for it... Of course they aren't! That's because they only know what the LDS recommends. What do you tell a client when he says, "I want to purchase the most "tech" BC available?" Of course they won't buy a backplate and wing if you don't have one in stock and don't recommend one...
Another key element is the elimination of the smug attitude of superiority some tech divers evidence, an attitude that drives others away and pushes them into a defensive posture. I was purely a recreational diver when I started on SB, and I was genuinely put off by the frequent and ridiculous "You're gonna die!" rants. There was one poster who wrote several times that ALL divers who use conventional octos drag them in the silt, with the result that ALL conventional octos are damaged and fail when used in an emergency. Absurd statements like that destroy credibility and make the speaker seem, frankly, ridiculous.
I can understand that. I feel the same way about these people. I think we all do, regardless of what "side" of the "fence" you're on.
Still, I can understand how they have that attitude... If someone's found a better way of doing something, they tend to become zealots about it, and their "what the heck are you doing that for" attitudes can feel offensive.
Finally, I see a need for the introduction of concepts once considered to be pure tech in recreational instruction. PADI accepted my Dive Planner distinctive specialty, which includes a lot of supposedly technical concepts like gas management. SSI has started teaching courses that bridge the gap. As these skills are introduced earlier and earlier in instruction, the gap to tech will not seem so huge, and a natural continuity will take shape. When I submitted my Distinctive Specialty, I had a very protracted argument with PADI about what skills that they thought were technical and I thought should be part of recreational diving. We didn't resolve anything, but I think I planted some seeds, if nothing else. Right now the gap between standard recreational diving and tech diving is huge, so a recreational diver has to make a gigantic commitment to start. I think that has to change.
Agreed. That's the whole point, I think... There is NOT a gigantic commitment to start, from this perspective. The concept, to me, that there IS a huge commitment - the "rec/tec gap" - is one that comes from the "recreational" side of the "fence." We're trying to tell those on the "rec" side that there ISN'T a gap at all... Especially if they embrace certain philosophies in diving from their very first, simplest dives. There is no reason why NOT to plan a dive. There is no reason why NOT to dive a long hose primary and necklaced backup. There is no reason why NOT to have excellent buddy skills. There is no reason why NOT to use a backplate and wing. There is no reason why NOT to nail your buoyancy and trim and learn that a frogkick and a back kick and a mod flutter is just another "tool" in the "toolbox" of kick styles.
Yet, if you don't learn/use these skills and gear, your diving will be limited, or at least present later on this huge gap between "rec" and "tech" that requries this enormous commitment and probably expense while the diver relearns and repurchases everything.
...So why doesn't the LDS point them down the right road to begin with? Forgive me if I must assume that this has to do with money and selling twice the gear, because I simply don't see any other reason why an LDS would teach this way.
