The Philosophy of Diver Training

[The Chairman]

That's an interesting insight into Florida boats.

One that I don't share and I live here too! 1 in 8-10 boats that I dive on have classes on them. Still, unless they are IN a class, I very rarely see tables come out for an OW dive.

 

[tomfcrist]

That was the problem, mine didn't (well, rescue was useful, Alt and Nitrox can easily be on-line and IMO given well-trained OW divers there really shouldn't be any need for a cert for either). I was just agreeing with Hendryk that I'm looking at Fundies because my big-agency classes left me feeling short-changed. I want the maximum, not the minimum. I want it to be hard enough to benefit from an instructor; I can learn 'easy' by myself. As we've all agreed, simple diving isn't rocket science.

Guy

Have to disagree s little. Enriched air is dangerous in the hands of a divrr that doesn't fully understand it. I had a freind of mine decide to use 32% on a 155' dive. O2 tox did him in. He was an OW diver with less than 20 dives, and borrowed tanks from a friend. So, until the full nitrox course is built into all agency's OW s&p, let's keep teaching the darn class.
On the other hand, alt, peak bouyancy, and limited vis should be covered in OW....once again, prepare them for what they will eventually have to deal with.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think Guy Alcala was saying people should use Nitrox without training. I think he said that Nitrox is easy enough to learn that you can do it from an on line class (which I think is true). I DO see the need for some kind of verification that one has taken and passed such a class, though, precisely to prevent the kind of story you told.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Have to disagree s little. Enriched air is dangerous in the hands of a divrr that doesn't fully understand it. I had a freind of mine decide to use 32% on a 155' dive. O2 tox did him in. He was an OW diver with less than 20 dives, and borrowed tanks from a friend. So, until the full nitrox course is built into all agency's OW s&p, let's keep teaching the darn class.
On the other hand, alt, peak bouyancy, and limited vis should be covered in OW....once again, prepare them for what they will eventually have to deal with.

With respect for your friend (and I'm always sad to hear cases like that), O2 tox didn't do him in ... an inability to make reasonable decisions did.

A diver with that little experience and borrowed equipment has no business at 155', no matter what he's breathing. People that are reckless will always find creative ways to injure or kill themselves ... or worse, someone else ... whether it's diving, climbing, driving a car, or some other activity that requires responsible decision-making.

Wasn't he told, in his OW class, what the depth limits were for that level of certification?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Have to disagree s little. Enriched air is dangerous in the hands of a divrr that doesn't fully understand it. I had a freind of mine decide to use 32% on a 155' dive. O2 tox did him in. He was an OW diver with less than 20 dives, and borrowed tanks from a friend. So, until the full nitrox course is built into all agency's OW s&p, let's keep teaching the darn class.
On the other hand, alt, peak bouyancy, and limited vis should be covered in OW....once again, prepare them for what they will eventually have to deal with.

What on earth is someone with 20 dives doing at 155 FSW?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Same thing the father and son in California were doing on one of their first dives after OW on a PLANNED dive to 150 feet that I use as an example in my failure of the buddy system presentation. Demonstrating a clear lack of judgment based on training that did not fully convince them of the risks involved in this sport, the suggested limits for divers and WHY they exist, and another example of the be back on the boat with 500 psi school of gas management.

 

[TechBlue]

Sales! It really is that simple. Why stop at OW or AOW when you can pump another $1000 worth of classes out of somebody? I know of one local shop that routinely sells DM classes straight out of OW ... everybody's a "natural". They crank out those 60-dive DM's like sausages, and most of them can't dive worth a damn.... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I know why they do it, my argument is that the current PADI standards allow a new diver to progress through AOW, Rescue Diver to DM candidate and still not have the most basic diving skills how can this be? Obviously this poor guy was not comfortable in the water, hyperventilating when he got lost and then losing all control of his bouyancy. Luckily they were running a rescue class or the outcome could have been quite different, I'm guessing that nobody down below in the OW classes even new that he was missing.
I am sure in his mind he was good diver well on his way to becoming a professional.

 

[tomfcrist]

I agree that he went way too deep got his training, bug his lack of knowledge about nitrox and the problems with high pp of o2 did kill him. He died with 1800 psi of gas still in his tank. I use his example in my OW classes to ensure my students can make logical decisions.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

I know why they do it, my argument is that the current PADI standards allow a new diver to progress through AOW, Rescue Diver to DM candidate and still not have the most basic diving skills how can this be? Obviously this poor guy was not comfortable in the water, hyperventilating when he got lost and then losing all control of his bouyancy. Luckily they were running a rescue class or the outcome could have been quite different, I'm guessing that nobody down below in the OW classes even new that he was missing.
I am sure in his mind he was good diver well on his way to becoming a professional.

It isn't just PADI ... NAUI has exactly the same standard ... 20 dives to start DM and 60 dives before you complete it.

I've only ever met two people who I would consider to have demonstration-quality diving skills with that many dives, and neither one of them had yet developed enough insight through experience to have been trusted with students or newly-certified OW divers. Fortunately, they both knew it.

There's a thread in here somewhere about a local (to me) instructor who was so inept she couldn't even put her own fins on without assistance. Even her OW students were wary of her. She's a classic example of someone who became an instructor by going from class-to-class-to-class without ever doing any real-world diving, and got her instructor certification as soon as she met the minimum requirements.

But, as I mentioned above ... this isn't just a PADI issue. My own agency uses the same low bar ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

I know why they do it, my argument is that the current PADI standards allow a new diver to progress through AOW, Rescue Diver to DM candidate and still not have the most basic diving skills how can this be?

PADI isn't the only agency with low standards. Assuming that the instructor "follows the rules," the biggest difference lies in what the instructor is allowed to do to train the diver. An instructor from one agency can add content as appropriate and require the student to perform to a higher standard; the other instructor is prohibited from doing so. In this way, the student is not held to the minimums and may be required to attain a high degree of diving proficiency before they are certified. Many choose to avoid talking about the differences, but they are indeed there.