The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Walter]

It's not the agency: it's the instructor.

This statement is rarely true. A great instructor will teach a great class regardless of his agency. Great instructors are extremely rare. Instructors I've observed over the years usually teach their agency's standards to the letter. Each agency writes its own standards and they vary a great deal. In most cases, the biggest difference between one class and another is the agency.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This statement is rarely true. A great instructor will teach a great class regardless of his agency. Great instructors are extremely rare. Instructors I've observed over the years usually teach their agency's standards to the letter. Each agency writes its own standards and they vary a great deal. In most cases, the biggest difference between one class and another is the agency.

That may be true in Florida ... but it is less true here. There is an incredible variance of quality among instructors, even those teaching within the same agency. Over the years I've come to know who the good ones are, and refer people to them whenever I can. I will also let people who ask me know which shops I consider good and which I recommend they avoid ... and why. It is generally true that the shops I don't consider very good are also the ones who have the poorest instructors ... although there is one notable exception ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

Common sense is a large denominator and this applies to both the instructor and the student. If a student chooses to take confined water and academics at home and fly out to a nice warm tropical resort to do their OW it is their choice, while they are there if they are so inclined they could also get their AOW quite easily. Now you have a diver to all intents and purposes meets the requirements for most dive ops and boats to go diving regardless of the conditions. The instructor has no control whatsoever on this and the student in their own mind may believe that they have taken all the training required despite the fact that all agencies tell students not to dive beyond their own personal limitations and to become familiar with local dive conditions before diving.

Yes, but lets look at this a little differently. As an Instructor I feel that I have a legal and moral duty to prepare my students for the conditions where I certify them. If they do not meet my requirements, they are not certified by me. I run an extensive course and the requirements are discussed with the student before they start. Everyone knows what they are getting into. They have compared the courses at the LDS and have elected to take this direction. If they succeed, I will certify them and be content to defend the training provided to them before any group of experts in any court.

If a local student goes to Florida and becomes an AOW diver. How they dive is completely up to them. The fact that the student is unprepared to dive locally isn't a factor until they go into the water for the first time. Once they do (assuming that they survive), there's no need to convince them. They will either never dive here again, or they will seek the additional training they need.

 

[DCBC]

All I have is my experience from my DM days working with a couple of PADI instructors ... one of whom I mentioned earlier. Both of those fellows taught a pretty thorough class, and included things I have seen posted here and elsewhere as not in the standards. Both turned out what I could call competent divers for PNW conditions. Neither seemed to have any issues with PADI standards, nor with testing their students to a level that I would consider adequate for the conditions in which they were teaching.

But both of those guys were very experienced instructors, and focused on the needs of their students rather than the minimum requirements. It is this focus that, I believe, made the difference between what they taught and what I keep seeing discussed here in ScubaBoard and elsewhere with respect to the limitations of the PADI curriculum.

I also know from talking to Peter Guy ... who is a PADI instructor ... that he has been able to include things not in the standards. Yes, he did have some issues teaching those things, but my understanding from discussing it with him personally was that it was less a PADI issue than it was an issue with the staff at the LDS.

I was like your PADI instructor friends, I went along in a certain direction for 17 years as a PADI instructor; up until the time I received a call from PADI HQ telling me what I've already related. BTW I believe it was Peter Guy who posted on this thread that you cannot add anything to the standards.

ADDED: Peter Guy's post #487 (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5092300-post487.html)
He differentiated between the skills that were introduced already in the course where the instructor was "merely refining them" as opposed to introducing new "skills."

 

[JeffG]

From reading this thread pretty carefully, it has been confirmed that a PADI instructor cannot add anything to the training program. There was a bit of a discussion on how much elaboration the instructor could get away with, but adding something not in the standards, testing on the material and requiring it for certification, no.

Thats not how I read it.

The way I saw it is that they (PADI instructors) could add to the course...they just can't withhold certification due to failing a test (on the additional material).

 

[Peter Guy]

DC continues to be hung up on PADI's requirement that it, not the local instructor, knows what is the right way to teach OW instruction. And he has a point -- but he seems to miss any and all caveats because of the PADI restriction on withholding an OW card if the student masters all of the PADI requirements even IF the local instructor believes they are not sufficient for the local conditions. That said, I can't help but believe that this issue is such a minor one for the vast majority of divers that it is an issue with no significant importance in real life.

His two prime historical complaints seem to be that he couldn't teach altitude tables during OW. Well, the OW card says you may dive under the same conditions as you were taught and he wasn't teaching at altitude (or so I understand -- just that some local diving was at altitude) so.... He says he couldn't teach diver rescue -- but it is unclear to me (although I have not read every word DCBC has written, life is too short) that he was prevented from demonstrating techniques or just prevented from mandating the skills be done prior to the OW cert.

In either case, there was nothing to prevent him from creating an OW/AOW/Rescue combination class which would have let him do everything he wanted. It would have given his students all the time he needed to teach them everything he knows is required for the basic OW student and the only additional charge he would have had to make is the $ for the two additional cards. Perhaps the real problem is that DC didn't have the imagination necessary to create the type of class he knows is right -- or perhaps, just perhaps, his students weren't ready to pay the $ and time necessary.

A case in point -- Just received a phone call from a person (physician) who is going to Cancun in 6 weeks and wants to "dip his toe in the water" so to speak to learn basic scuba. He thinks doing course work online, confined water at home and OW in Cancun will be just the ticket. He doesn't know IF he wants to do anything more than blow some bubbles in the Carib while he is in Cancun for a conference -- but he wants the opportunity to "Discover Scuba" in a reasonable way. AND IF he decides he likes the experience, he wants the opportunity to continue his education.

This seems to me to be a pretty normal picture of someone who wants to take the OW course. They don't know if they want to continue -- they want to try it out. So what is wrong with giving them some basic tools and relying on their own intelligence that they are guppies and may well need hand holding for their first few dives?

 

[TechBlue]

If a local student goes to Florida and becomes an AOW diver. How they dive is completely up to them. The fact that the student is unprepared to dive locally isn't a factor until they go into the water for the first time. Once they do (assuming that they survive), there's no need to convince them. They will either never dive here again, or they will seek the additional training they need.

I disagree but then I spent the last 15 years diving the Jersey shore and I have seen a diver using a vice grip for a valve handle so as not to miss a Doria dive, no names or boats mentioned. And even a NAUI OW instructor with no technical experience doing a bounce dive just to see the Doria.

We are not the smartest of breeds but we do have a strong instinct for survival, my issue is that until something really bad happens many divers feel that they are perfectly capable of diving in situations beyond their limitations, better engineered equipment and rigid dive profiles determined by boat operators have kept many a recreational diver from being placed in a situation that they could not handle. Unfortunately when they do come across a situation they are just **** out of luck and that is my issue.

Plus of course the obvious that a few agencies see OW divers as a recurring revenue so we don't need to try and make sure that they enjoy diving because they may only do it occasionally and in warm water.

 

[The Chairman]

That may be true in Florida ..

That hasn't been my experience in Florida. The instructor is the critical factor. In fact, I think that Walter has a piece on how to choose a good instructor... I wonder why he didn't say agency instead?

If the same tool can produce both good and bad, the problem is not with the tool: it's with the person wielding the tool. Of course, it's best to use the right tool. Why train someone for arctic diving (or overhead) if they are very unlikely to ever go there? There is nothing wrong with people CHOOSING to only dive in warm waters. If fact, choosing otherwise can be seen as somewhat psychotic!

All kidding aside, why waste time and resources on teaching things not needed to dive in my environment. I know that Walter, the original Warm Water Wimp, refuses to dive in cold water. Does this make him any LESS of an instructor? We don't see his students wearing dry suits with 400 pounds of lead strapped to them. Why would he want to do that to his students?

If a local student goes to Florida and becomes an AOW diver. How they dive is completely up to them.

BINGO! That they must dive in similar or better conditions is a mantra taught by ALL agencies. That people choose to IGNORE their training is not the agencies' fault. I have seen people do some STOOPID things underwater, and I am certain that they violated their training each and every time. A large part of it is the "the rules don't apply to me" syndrome... just like when you violated PADI standards. People often feel that they are better than they are, so they invent new rules that apply to only them. It's like the guy going to 155 FSW... do you think that his instructor encouraged him to do that? Yes, there are some cowboy instructors out there, but for the most part we all agree that most instructors are almost SLAVES to their standards.

Can the rules change? We are certain that they will, and so what was true about PADI SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO, is probably not true now. Not that this will stop you from constantly pointing out how your honor was impugned another billion times. Fortunately, PADI is showing their integrity and NOT giving us their side of this sordid event. That would be interesting to read, but they are consummate professionals when it comes to this sort of thing. Ergo, we only have your version and some of us believe that to be a tad biased. Maybe even more than a tad. Can we give it a rest?

 

[The Chairman]

(although I have not read every word DCBC has written, life is too short)

Dude! You owe me a monitor cleaning.

Perhaps the real problem is that DC didn't have the imagination necessary to create the type of class he knows is right

Twice in one post! But you are dead on correct here.

It's not the tool.

I ran a student machine/welding/structures lab for Architectural students for the University of Florida. My favorite machine to teach was the band saw. A quick look at the material they wanted to saw allowed me to choose the best blade and speed combination and so I set that for them. We had a short talk on safety and how they should feed the saw and not force it. I would watch them for a moment or two, and then busy myself with various projects around the shop. I could tell by the sound coming from the band saw how successful they were at any given time. Quite often as the sound went from normal to cacophonic in an instant, I would hear them swearing at the saw. Even then, my favorite phrase was: "It's not the tool!" Then I would hear a return to normalcy or something else that would indicate that my intercession was needed immediately.

A bad tool can rarely produce adequate results even with the most gifted of artisans. In the same way, a bad artisan can not produce adequate results with even the best of tools. If a tool is seen producing both good and bad, then it's probably not the tool.

 

[Walter]

The instructor is the critical factor. In fact, I think that Walter has a piece on how to choose a good instructor... I wonder why he didn't say agency instead?

Because there are good instructors in all agencies. Why eliminate good instructors teaching through agencies with low standards if they can over come that problem?

I know that Walter, the original Warm Water Wimp, refuses to dive in cold water.

Hmmmmm, I've been diving in Siberia. I've dived Lake Michigan. I've dived California..... Are your other facts as accurate?