The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Kingpatzer]

If students really learned to dive, and felt comfortable in open water after their basic course, the drop out rate would be reduced and the retention rate increased. This would, quite obviously, grow the number of divers and the industry overall.

I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but it's always struck me as some what off kilter.

From my own observations and experiences anyway, most students show up at our classes with the expectation of diving on a vacation (often a honeymoon or special anniversary once-in-a-lifetime trip) and indicate no real interest in diving beyond that point.

If we made the courses longer and harder so that "students really learned to dive" (I guess you see us teaching them to drown with grace?) then those students wouldn't start to dive and our class size would drop precipitously.

The folks who become local divers are precisely those people who take a quick course, find they love it, and continue to dive locally. I've met exactly one student who choose to learn to dive because he wanted to dive in local waters.

Maybe this view is realistic in some locales, but I suspect over-all it stems from a lack of appreciation of the average person's situation.

People who make around $50k a year on average aren't taking warm water vacations regularly, they on average don't buy thousands of dollars of gear to support a hobby, and they on average aren't going to become regular divers. But many of them will drop a few hundred dollars to get the certification to say they are a certified diver, and they'll go dive on their once in a lifetime vacation.

Not everyone is a doctor or lawyer or successful business owner or has the benefit of living in a dive vacation destination.

 

[Walter]

Yet, there are many, even here on ScubaBoard, who are reticent about sharing that their OW cert is PADI. The bashers have succeeded in attaching a stigma to this type of learning.

Why are you quoting me and then not responding to my point. This is totally unrelated to the point we are discussing.

Yet, you guys are the most vocal about what you feel is "wrong" with today's education by a factor of ten. While the instructors tune you out, new divers are aghast that they took (horrors) the PADI route to certain death and destruction.

Again, the topic is me not teaching fast track classes keeping people from learning to dive. It's not the case.

While I have often cajoled you about your attitude, I don't ever think I have labeled your class inadequate or dangerous. If I have, please show me so I can correct it! Can you make the same statement in regards to PADI?

You have not. You denigrate the more comprehensive approach by using terms like "dinosaur," "old-timey," and others as well as equating it to things that are totally unrelated like SEAL training and pushups in full gear.

I have not said a PADI course is inherently inadequate or dangerous. They certainly can be, but there are excellent PADI instructors teaching excellent classes.

This is a bit obscure: which ones?

You were obscure by saying "all." Make your list, I'll tell you if I take exception to parts of it.

Ah, it's in the definition of "extremely" where we might agree or disagree.

It's pretty much a sure thing we will either agree or disagree.

OK, if you double the retention rate while teaching one tenth of the students, would you find that would grow the industry better than classes tailored to the busy professional?

Why pull numbers out of the air?

Not having seen you teach, I can't say. The converse is also true, n'est pas?

I don't speak French, so I can't respond to that part of your post, but I wasn't referring to your classes specifically. I have seen classes that typically use the term.

You missed the subtlety of his point. Please re-read it. It's bullet proof in regards to PADI standards.

I agree with his point with regard to PADI standards. I didn't miss it at all. I'm not arguging, I'm agreeing with him.

If we made the courses longer and harder

They are easier.

 

[hg frogman]

1) I believe that the ultimate goal of dive training is to produce divers fully able to dive independently (ie without a guide or DM or whatever). I feel there is more interest and reward, at least if you are genuinely interested in a sport, to do it by yourself, taking full responsability for it, rather than to do it more or less by proxy, as a "follower", as it is often the case with a guide (this applies to other sports, such as alpinism for example).

2) This belief is the mainstream where I live (France). The French Diving Federation (which is part of CMAS) openly expresses it, and it has been a cornerstone of its philosophy so far. I guess there are several other European countries (eg Great Britain and Germany) where it is the same. In France at least, the majority of the training is done within non-profit clubs, where would-be divers that are not really motivated for diving give up quite quickly, and where divers are pushed to reach higher levels - up to guide or instructor, which are useful levels for the club. I guess most of those who keep on diving in France reach more than the equivalent of the PADI Rescue certification ; and most of them don't like being guided (that's also my case). Guided diving is mostly for beginners in French waters, and French dive operations are organized accordingly (CMAS *** divers are never guided, and CMAS ** divers are guided only for dives deeper than 25 meters/80 feet).

3) I wouldn't put the blame on PADI training (by the way I am also a PADI MSDT). I see nothing in the content of PADI courses that ultimately prevents from reaching full independence as a "recreational" diver diving down to 40 meters/130 feet (I am not saying that PADI courses are the best way to reach this independence, or that shortcomings of PADI courses do not exist, but this is another topic).

4) In many places (Caribbean, Egypt, Asia ...) the only option available, even for experienced divers with high certifications, is "guided dives". It often takes great pain (or it's even impossible) to avoid being guided. For me this is the ultimate limitation that prevents from reaching independence as a diver. I can see several reasons for this restriction of freedom, but they are not directly connected with divers training. Let's say they are more akin "cultural" in a broad meaning. Remove this "guided dives only" stuff and there will be more independent divers (trained accordingly).

5) (Added afterwards) I read the OP again and saw I missed something. The OP spoke about entry-level course only (eg PADI Open Water). Well, the PADI Open Water course can give excellent results, provided it is not done cheaply in a cheap dive center by cheap instructors for cheap clients who want their OWD C-card in 3 days for 180 euros (225 US$) or even less.
The main problem here is not PADI standards for the OW course (which I find quite high and comprehensive for an entry-level course, at least if the instructor does an honest job), it's the way these standards are applied (or, more accurately, not applied) in the field. That's not because these standards are unclear, that's because the instructor doesn't want to do the full stuff (and he or she often has understandable reasons for that, eg getting peanuts as payment). Talking only about the content of the standards is, for me, mostly academic and missing the real point.
In this post and in my next one I address how full training (eg from OW to Rescue Diver or more) and independent diving are related or not, which is a topic a bit different than the OP.

 

[Walter]

4) In many places (Caribbean, Egypt, Asia ...) the only option available, even for experienced divers with high certifications, is "guided dives". It often takes great pain (or it's even impossible) to avoid being guided. For me this is the ultimate limitation for reaching independance as a diver. I can see several reasons for this, but they are not directly connected with divers training. Let's say they are more akin "cultural" in a broad meaning.

I enjoyed your post and I agree with almost all of it. When I started diving around the Caribbean, I encountered guides. Sometimes the first dive required a guide. I don't remember a single case anywhere that required a guide on subsequent dives. I do believe in most cases places that require guides have done so because of the fact so many of the divers with whom they deal are incompetent. Guides are there partially to protect these divers from their own incompetence and partially to protect the reefs from the incompetent divers. While some are folks who've forgotten their training, I suspect most had training that was inadequate. I know many have had, in my opinion, inadequate training. This inadequate training is not inherent in the PADI program nor is PADI the only program through which these divers are trained.

 

[DCBC]

We are *attacking* and with good reason, with valid arguments and with the conviction to to get the truth out that your opinions about PADI are cynical, negative and false.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that I'm incorrect in my assessments by providing factual evidence from current PADI Standards. I'll make it easy:

1. No PADI Instructor may test (use the term evaluate if this helps you understand the intent of the word "test") on anything outside of the PADI Standards to determine if a diver may be certified.

2. If a Student meets the knowledge and skill-sets outlined within PADI Standards, s/he must be certified.

3. A PADI Instructor who teaches outside of PADI Standards is not covered by PADI liability insurance for anything added to the PADI Standards.

Now I've stated that I am no longer a PADI Instructor. I have outlined my experience with PADI and the direct conversations that I've had with PADI HQ. I have been called a liar and a coward for outlining these. Rather than continuing to insult me, perhaps you can make your case, rather than just saying I'm telling half-truths, etc. Don't attack me thinking that your somehow justified. Enlighten me with actual information not opinions. I don't have a current Instructor manual, so it's impossible for me to do this.

Perhaps a Course Director could outline PADI's position specifically:.

1. If a PADI Instructor added rescue to his OW program, would he be covered by PADI Insurance, or would he be in contravention of PADI Standards?

2. How about teaching altitude or tide tables as a mandatory tested requirement for PADI OW certification? Can this be done or not?

3. Can a PADI Instructor teach, test/evaluate and require proven competence in buddy breathing as a requirement for OW certification? Is the Instructor covered by liability insurance if he chooses to teach this? Is he in breach of PADI Standards? What other things can he add to the PADI program that are not an embellishment of PADI Standards?

As I've mentioned, I was censored for some of these things by PADI HQ. Now times may have changed, so how about a little professionalism here? Address the issues and don't feel that the matter is being addressed by attempting to hang the messenger.

 

[TechBlue]

By lowering the standards and training required for divers to obtain a C-card, based on the premise that these divers and dive operators will follow the guidelines and restrictions associated with these "certifications" is just plain dumb and everybody knows it.

You have ego and you have the dive op's chasing the dollar so as a result you do have divers in the water that are not only a peril to themselves but also whomever may be in the water with them and they are diving beyond their limitations!

I can see the typical scenario on a resort boat, predive briefing ending with "who doesn't have a buddy? OK, you and you are buddies"....if you have experience not quite as dangerous but if you are another "only dives warm water once a year" it defeats the purpose of buddy diving by any definiton and how many new divers have the confidence to question their "new dive buddy"?

 

[Jax]

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that I'm incorrect in my assessments by providing factual evidence from current PADI Standards. I'll make it easy:

1. No PADI Instructor may test (use the term evaluate if this helps you understand the intent of the word "test") on anything outside of the PADI Standards to determine if a diver may be certified.

2. If a Student meets the knowledge and skill-sets outlined within PADI Standards, s/he must be certified.

3. A PADI Instructor who teaches outside of PADI Standards is not covered by PADI liability insurance for anything added to the PADI Standards.

Now I've stated that I am no longer a PADI Instructor. I have outlined my experience with PADI and the direct conversations that I've had with PADI HQ. I have been called a liar and a coward for outlining these. Rather than continuing to insult me, perhaps you can make your case, rather than just saying I'm telling half-truths, etc. Don't attack me thinking that your somehow justified. Enlighten me with actual information not opinions. I don't have a current Instructor manual, so it's impossible for me to do this.

Perhaps a Course Director could outline PADI's position specifically:.

1. If a PADI Instructor added rescue to his OW program, would he be covered by PADI Insurance, or would he be in contravention of PADI Standards?

2. How about teaching altitude or tide tables as a mandatory tested requirement for PADI OW certification? Can this be done or not?

3. Can a PADI Instructor teach, test/evaluate and require proven competence in buddy breathing as a requirement for OW certification? Is the Instructor covered by liability insurance if he chooses to teach this? Is he in breach of PADI Standards? What other things can he add to the PADI program that are not an embellishment of PADI Standards?

As I've mentioned, I was censored for some of these things by PADI HQ. Now times may have changed, so how about a little professionalism here? Address the issues and don't feel that the matter is being addressed by attempting to hang the messenger.

Source of your statements, please? I cannot find them -- perhaps you are re- or para-phrasing.

 

[The Chairman]

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that I'm incorrect in my assessments by providing factual evidence from current PADI Standards. I'll make it easy:

Wow! Now you want to deal with just facts? Cool! As for waiting, we've been telling you: you just don't want to accept it.

1. No PADI Instructor may test (use the term evaluate if this helps you understand the intent of the word "test") on anything outside of the PADI Standards to determine if a diver may be certified.

A formal test: no. An informal test: yes. This is being done all the time within the PADI system.

2. If a Student meets the knowledge and skill-sets outlined within PADI Standards, s/he must be certified.

If the instructor has deemed that they have achieved mastery of all of those skills in the dive environment, then yes. There is plenty of wriggle room in this definition for an intelligent and resourceful instructor to not certify a bad diver.

3. A PADI Instructor who teaches outside of PADI Standards is not covered by PADI liability insurance for anything added to the PADI Standards.

Negative. It's the instructor who VIOLATES PADI standards that is not covered. This is true for EVERY agency that I am aware of. If you teach a skill specifically prohibited or out of the scope of the class, then you are on your own.

Now I've stated that I am no longer a PADI Instructor. I have outlined my experience with PADI and the direct conversations that I've had with PADI HQ.

Your biased POV (obvious hatred for PADI) renders the recollection of all of your conversations as being similarly biased. You have substituted your inferences as being fact as evidenced by your next statement

I have been called a liar and a coward for outlining these.

Please quote where anyone has specifically called you a coward or a liar. This quote should contain a form of the verb "to be". You have inferred this from statements only to play the martyr card, and no one buys it but you. I even made fun of your proclivity to take offense where none was given. Give it a rest, man.

Rather than continuing to insult me,

No one has insulted you, but you have done more to harm your reputation in this thread than everyone else combined. Rather, we have showed that you are indeed a POV Warrior and a PADI Basher. Even Walter has asked you to "ratchet it down a notch or two". Most of us would appreciate it if you would simply change channels for a moment so we don't have to keep debunking your venomous (Oh! I called him a snake now!) and fallacious tripe in concerns to PADI.

perhaps you can make your case, rather than just saying I'm telling half-truths, etc. Don't attack me thinking that your somehow justified.

First, it would help if you would stick to full truths, rather than mix half truths up with your opinions and conclusions. Second, no one is attacking you. We are however attacking your beliefs that somehow PADI's program is

• Only about Profit
• Puts divers at risk
• Is sub-standard

In an earlier post you mentioned that you could not safely teach under the PADI system. Is this a PADI failing or a DCBC failing? After all, there are plenty of instructors who have no problem teaching a fun, thorough and safe course under the PADI system. Why are they successful while you could not be? Please stop the bashing, and if you do bash: you can expect a few of us to call you on your shenanigans.

PADI is all about "Teaching the World" to Dive and "Living the Dream". It's OK if you don't want to be a part of that paradigm. That's your choice. But rather than tell us what you think is wrong with PADI, why don't you just concentrate on telling us what is right for whoever you

 

[The Chairman]

As a caveat, I have no dog in this fight save the belief that bashing ANY agency is wrong. The RSTC and the WRSTC set minimum standards for dive training in the US and in the World. I don't know of a single agency, member or not, who fails to meet or exceed their standards and that includes PADI. DCBC has yet to show that they do not meet these standards.

DCBC has admitted to being censured by PADI for his violating their standards. It is my opinion that his resentment over this is the impetus of his continual and malicious campaign against PADI. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a POV Warrior and a PADI basher and that he subtly trolls ScubaBoard with threads that are mere fronts to push his anti-PADI POV. Of course, your opinion of him may differ considerably, and that's the fun and freedom of the internet.

You might wonder why I am not a PADI instructor and it mostly boils down to personalities. In actuality, I made it through Dive Master within the PADI system but I could not stomach the gentleman wanting to make me a PADI instructor here in Orlando. MB can take credit for me becoming a NAUI instructor and World Water Sports can take the credit for me being an SDI/TDI instructor. As it stands, due to their lack of leadership online and their attitudes towards PDCs, I don't think I will be renewing my NAUI membership this year. I believe in the mission of SDI/TDI and love the way they have led the industry in so many ways, including online training and PDCs. They are not afraid of the internet and have embraced it with relish. That gives me the warm fuzzies!

 

[Kingpatzer]

1. If a PADI Instructor added rescue to his OW program, would he be covered by PADI Insurance, or would he be in contravention of PADI Standards?

I'm not a CD, nor have I talked to my CD about this specific question, but I did ask a variant of it yesterday at my IDC session.

It is perfectly OK for a PADI instructor to teach an OW-AOW-Rescue course as a single unit. Additional experience dives will need to be included and those dives can be used to refine skills. PADI has no standards on pricing structures for such combined courses. AOW must be included because it is a prerequisite for Rescue in the PADI system (which I understand is a hot topic with quite a few CD's and instructors.)

It is perfectly OK for a PADI instructor to teach elements of the rescue course in an OW course, to the extent a student is qualified to perform those skills. An instructor may not, for example, teach giving rescue breaths to an unconscious diver on the surface because there is no expectation that the students are CPR certified.

But showing them how to drop weights, establish positive buoyancy for their buddy, and talking about the dangers of approaching a panicking diver are all perfectly ok.

2. How about teaching altitude or tide tables as a mandatory tested requirement for PADI OW certification? Can this be done or not?

If one is training in an altitude environment, then additional focus on altitude diving is required by the course standards as the students must participate in planning their OW dives. As the course instruction is moving to using PDC's instead of tables, altitude diving as separate instruction is less of an issue within the course standards. This is another hotly debated topic, but is not a change that is unique to PADI. It is actually something of a response to changes made by other agencies.

3. Can a PADI Instructor teach, test/evaluate and require proven competence in buddy breathing as a requirement for OW certification?

No, it is specifically disallowed. It is a skill taught at higher levels in the PADI system.