The Philosophy of Diver Training

[DCBC]

You being a liar implies that you know these to be false.

...One can take umbrage where one wants, but it's the coward's way to discuss issues.

What's really pathetic, is that you can't follow your own rules:

"Profane, racial, insulting or mean spirited language is simply not allowed here." You should add "unless you're the Chairman and anything goes." :mooner:

 

[The Chairman]

What rule did I break? I said nothing profane, racial, insulting or mean spirited here. I have called you no names. However, I have labeled certain proclivities as cowardly since they are designed to be a red herring and are used to avoid the real issues. I can certainly understand your desire to not deal with the issues if there is no substance to your claims.

I wonder if you see taking offense where none was intended as heroic?

 

[The Chairman]

Odds are you learned about it the same way I did or directly or indirectly from my comparison. Both of us saw the value of this skill.

Actually, I learned in my PADI OW class. I was shocked to learn it was merely optional under NAUI. I went all the way through to Dive Master with possibly the worst instructor that ever dove. He wasn't bad because he was PADI. He was bad because he was lazy, incompetent, put me in jeopardy and lacked the basic knowledge I garnered just from reading the PADI OW manual.

Our industry (Scuba Instruction) has been undergoing a radical transformation in the last 10 years. With the advent of online learning, the almost universal acceptance of the PDC, changes in how we should be imparting skills and so on, it amazes me that anyone would trot out a philosophy where the status quo is worshiped. Yes, I am an early adopter and hopefully a catalyst for the change with the work I have done here on ScubaBoard. When I first learned Scuba (way before certification) and then when I was finally certified, there were very few ways I could research diving and it's various methodologies. Now, I can get on to the interwebz and am overloaded with everything from Diving communities to vids on Youtube. My instructor is no longer the sole provider of Scuba information and I don't have to spend a lot of money to get advice from lots of instructors and authors.

It's the information age and I see the relevance of old timey instructors waning into nothingness. Gone are the Navy Sealesque classes and doing pushups in all your gear. Gone (thankfully) is the mucho macho phase and we are finding that lady divers are AWESOME and you don't need to look like Lloyd Bridges!!! Scuba diving ain't rocket science. It ain't that physically demanding, unless you want it to be. It just ain't that hard and that scared the bejesus out of backwards thinking old timey instructors who simply are incapable of keeping up with the change. T-Rex was impressive in his day, but now it's time for men and women to take over the sport and use their noggins to make it better in terms of safety and fun.

[/rant]

 

[DCBC]

I can certainly understand your desire to not deal with the issues if there is no substance to your claims.

Perhaps you don't see any differences between the training philosophy being discussed, as you haven't had any exposure to the agency in-question. It doesn't however substantiate you as very knowledgeable in the areas under discussion. I've been told by several people on SB that there's no use in arguing with you as you "dig in your heals," regardless of your position.

As you seem to be unable to conduct a discussion without being abusive, I can't see any reason to carry-on a conversation with you at this time. I'm sure we may run into one another at a diving event at some point and may elect to reexamine the matter more closely at that time.

 

[The Chairman]

Perhaps you don't see any differences between the training philosophy being discussed, as you haven't had any exposure to the agency in-question.

Get your facts straight, dude. I went through PADI divemaster, and disclosed that in the post just prior to your last one.

It doesn't however substantiate you as very knowledgeable in the areas under discussion.

From what you have posted, it seems my understanding of PADI's system exceeds your own on several levels. That and my experience with PADI is far more recent than yours.

I've been told by several people on SB that there's no use in arguing with you as you "dig in your heals," regardless of your position.

Wow... an outright ad-hominem. When you can't discuss facts, just play the martyr card and blame the other guy for sticking to them regardless of the myriad of fallacies you have presented us.

As you seem to be unable to conduct a discussion without being abusive,

Shenanigans #3!!! You keep saying this, but I have not been abusive one whit. I have called you no names, nor have I implied any. I have called you on your Shenanigans. I guess you'll now claim that I am calling you a Shenaniganer. In fact, I would suggest that your treatment of PADI is far more abusive and is seen by many as PADI bashing. If you can't take it, please don't dish it out!

I can't see any reason to carry-on a conversation with you at this time.

That happens when you can't deal with a differing perspective. Feel free to avoid me and the truth at any time. Don't expect me to go anywhere else but here. FWIW, you can always report my posts that you think are abusive! I don't even chime in on those discussions.

 

[DCBC]

...use of the term teach in place of the proper term test

Understood; I'll try again. In diving education, testing serves a number of purposes. First, it provides confirmation that the student has (or has not) absorbed the required information. Secondly, it provides the Instructor with a written record (documentary evidence), of what the student had an understanding of.

If you teach something (especially if the information is hazard related and knowledge would enhance diver safety), it is valuable to have a written record of testing. This supports the fact that the Student was given instruction on the hazard and the he/she understood the subject matter.

I see it important to test on anything that may be hazardous to the diver. If anything is added to the program (for example tide or altitude tables) and is a potential hazard to the diver, I believe in testing on this material.

The discussion that was underway surrounded the fact that PADI HQ told me (when I was a PADI Instructor) that I could not add this to the PADI OW program and anything I taught outside the material covered by PADI Standards would not be covered by PADI liability insurance. Since leaving PADI (teaching under the auspices of other agencies), I've continued to add material to the OW (or equivalent program) so as to maximize diver safety in the local environment.

As you are an educator, how do you feel toward the teaching/testing process? Would you agree that important material should be the subject of testing?

Do you know what PADI's position is now on adding material to their program; which is not otherwise contained within PADI Standards?

 

[DCBC]

Feel free to avoid me and the truth at any time.

No I don't want to avoid you at all. In fact I'm looking forward to eventually meeting you.

 

[Diver0001]

What's really pathetic, is that you can't follow your own rules:

"Profane, racial, insulting or mean spirited language is simply not allowed here." You should add "unless you're the Chairman and anything goes." :mooner:

Don't play the victim card to try wiggling out of this, Wayne.

Nobody is attacking YOU, as should be apparent ffrom all of the posts I've made in the last couple of days.

We are *attacking* and with good reason, with valid arguments and with the conviction to to get the truth out that your opinions about PADI are cynical, negative and false.

If you have a problem with that, I'm sorry but we're not going to back off. Putting your PADI bashing BS to the test is going to be the new theme on Scubaboard until everyone understands how you work and draws their own conclusions about your statements.

If they agree with you, fine. If they don't, also fine. But starting yesterday you're going to have to debate it. Playing the victim card isn't going to get you off the hook.

R..

 

[Walter]

the almost universal acceptance of the PDC

What is PDC? I googled it and came up with a bunch of different results, none of which seemed to apply here.

It's the information age and I see the relevance of old timey instructors waning into nothingness.

Sounds like you're advocating a return to the day when we ordered a lung and manual from Rene Bussoz and hit the water with no more training than reading the 24 page booklet.

Gone are the Navy Sealesque classes and doing pushups in all your gear. Gone (thankfully) is the mucho macho phase and we are finding that lady divers are AWESOME and you don't need to look like Lloyd Bridges!!! Scuba diving ain't rocket science. It ain't that physically demanding, unless you want it to be. It just ain't that hard and that scared the bejesus out of backwards thinking old timey instructors who simply are incapable of keeping up with the change.

Pete, I know you had a crappy instructor who had you do pushup with your gear, but the fact is those morons were never very common and no one has ever taught combat in recreational SCUBA. Those type of comments indicate a closed mind. You are an advocate of two way discussion and looking at both sides of a discussion with an open mind, please don't back away from that point of view with comments like this.

Yes, women divers are awesome. No one is suggesting otherwise. Yes, the macho concept is disappearing, but unfortunately, shorter classes are making that more difficult. Longer classes are easier than shorter ones and they make it possible for folks to dive who can't hack the shorter classes. Diving can be physically demanding if we don't take enough time to make it easy.

now it's time for men and women to take over the sport and use their noggins to make it better in terms of safety and fun.

I completely agree. A longer, more comprehensive approach to teaching will bring this about.

 

[mdb]

I completely agree. A longer, more comprehensive approach to teaching will bring this about.

Walter:

Seems to me you have it right without the rancor.

As mentioned before, I was first certified in San Diego by San Digeo Divers supply, they were NASDS, course was five weeks, lots of pool work, five open water dives. No push up drills, no harrasment, just good detailed instruction, mask clearing in open water, buddy breathing horizontal and vertical, how to deal with kelp, and more. It was not "old timey" or old fashioned. It was just complete. We really learned to dive.

Later I took NAUI and more NASDS and PADI courses, rescue, deep dive, etc. In one NAUI course our instructor, a very good one, turned off our air, removed masks, and all that. He did it one at a time with a great degree of care and skill. I benefited from it.

The lowering of standards, whatever the motive, results, IMO, in "divers" who are inadequately trained and never really learn to be independent and
active divers.