The Philosophy of Diver Training

[schaffld]

Yup... set myself up for those snappy comebacks, didn't I?

As for the ethical dilemma you propose. If someone wants to dive in Halifax, no, a referral to Florida is not appropriate to complete the course, and I stated what my response to them would be. If someone who happens to just live in Halifax with no interest in diving there and simply wants to learn how to dive so they can go look at some tropical fish down in the Caribbean two or three times a year, why not?

I will now go back to my burger and fries and let you dig in to your esoteric agency's Petto di Pollo con Gamberi e Limone at da Maurizio there on the Halifax Waterfront... you can clog your arteries with that. :cool2:

 

[JKPAO]

Manou; Minos or Mises told me I don't have to!
See you topside! John

 

[Thalassamania]

If we start to bring legalities, litigation, and lawyers into this discussion, we'll never get out of it. Ditto for greedy, profit driven, dive-shop owners demanding me to pump out as many divers as possible.

legalities, litigation, and lawyers are, actually, rather rare; however greedy, profit driven, facility owners demanding to pump out as many divers as possible are rather common.

Yes, I suppose I can envision a scenario in which the conditions of an area were so inhospitible that the PADI standards would be insufficient to certify an entry-level diver. ...

Should that same person show up at my shop a month later with c-card from X dive shop in the Bahamas wanting to dive in the same inhospitible conditions ...

I do have the ability to contact PADI and ask for a waiver to deviate from the standards ...

I fail to understand why anyone would bother with a situation that demands that sort of a legal and ethical contortionist.

 

[schaffld]

I fail to understand why anyone would bother with a situation that demands that sort of a legal and ethical contortionist

I was asked if I could envision a situation in which PADI's standards were insufficient...

Yes, it required that much contortionism on my part to come up with one... and, frankly, I wouldn't bother it with it either.

Hey, did we just agree on something???

 

[Thalassamania]

No we did not just agree on something. Outlining what just happened would require me to be impolite to you and I'm trying very hard to avoid that.

 

[schaffld]

No we did not just agree on something. Outlining what just happened would require me to be impolite to you and I'm trying very hard to avoid that.

If you find it necessary to be impolite to make your outline, go ahead.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't guess I'll bother beyond observing that some time on the Northern California coast or in the North Atlantic off of Newfoundland would provide you with an understanding of what DCBC and I are talking about.

 

[rstofer]

Prior to the rescue attempt you should vent ALL of the air from your BCD and if you are using a drysuit you want to squeeze as much air from it as possible as well. Use the victim's BCD to control the ascent rate for both of you. Sure, you may have to vent some additional air from your own as you ascend ... depending on the depth you started from ... but you will be minimizing the need to manage two BCDs on the ascent. If you are wearing a drysuit, make sure the dump valve is opened ... you will be ascending in a vertical position as you swim the victim to the surface, and with the dump valve opened the expanding air in your drysuit will vent itself as you ascend.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I really do respect your opinions, they are always well reasoned and based on a lot of experience.

However, I have to disagree with this approach. Consider 2 wetsuit divers with full HP 100s (-20# so far) and whose wetsuits have lost 20# of lift each (assume we are pretty deep - another 40# of lift required). There is no way a single 30# wing will be able to get both divers off the bottom. It just won't happen.

In fact, both wings are completely full just maintaining neutral buoyancy at that depth. We can discuss variations on the numbers all day long but nobody should be diving with a wing having 100% excess lift capacity.

I like to think of Rescue as situational. I don't believe that one procedure fits all. An example: I wouldn't be able to rescue any drysuit diver. I have no idea how to vent the thing. I guess it would be a question of launching them like a missle or leaving them behind. Or maybe I would figure out that I could open the neck seal. Maybe...

I do agree that as we get shallow, I could vent my wing a little more so I could be a little negative and I could keep the victim a little positive. But that refinement is going to have to wait because I am going to be pretty busy venting the wings on the way up.

The other part of the situation: I don't think there are very many rescues of unconscious divers from depth. I rather expect there are just recoveries.

Richard

 

[Crush]

I like to think of Rescue as situational. I don't believe that one procedure fits all. An example: I wouldn't be able to rescue any drysuit diver. I have no idea how to vent the thing. I guess it would be a question of launching them like a missle or leaving them behind. Or maybe I would figure out that I could open the neck seal. Maybe...

I do agree that as we get shallow, I could vent my wing a little more so I could be a little negative and I could keep the victim a little positive. But that refinement is going to have to wait because I am going to be pretty busy venting the wings on the way up.

Richard

I feel some responsibility for this sub-part of the thread - it seems to have begun with the phrase "add air to the BC and make a slow, controlled ascent" or something like that. There was nothing wrong with that statement, by the way, I just didn't elaborate on how to make a slow, controlled ascent for fear of comments like yours. However, you are right - rescues are situation-dependent.

The reason for keeping the rescuer negative and the victim positive was aptly demonstrated by my "rescuer" in one of our pool sessions - after ascertaining that I was unconscious/non-responsive at the bottom of the pool he rolled me onto my back and with one hand kept my reg in my mouth while with the other hand he inflated his own BC. During the ascent I slipped out of his grasp - the rescuer went rising to the surface while the unconscious victim slipped into the abyss...

As a drysuit diver, if I were unconscious I would appreciate a rescue attempt by someone untrained in drysuit rescue rather than being left to drown. If my relief valve has been set correctly, simply keeping me in an upright orientation and ensuring that I am not left-side-down will allow the expanding air to escape automatically. If not, depress the relief valve on my left arm and air will vent out. If none of that works and you have the presence of mind and the time, cut my suit. I'd rather pay to repair it than risk possible DCS or barotrauma.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However, I have to disagree with this approach. Consider 2 wetsuit divers with full HP 100s (-20# so far) and whose wetsuits have lost 20# of lift each (assume we are pretty deep - another 40# of lift required). There is no way a single 30# wing will be able to get both divers off the bottom. It just won't happen.

Well, sure ... that is a really, REALLY ... REALLY ... specific set of circumstances. I mean, you're describing a perfect storm here. So why stop there? Let's just talk about bringing up someone in double 130s and deco bottles .... assuming, of course, that they just conked out at the beginning of the dive and all those bottles are full!

I'm describing how you teach an OW student (which was, if you go back and look, the context we were discussing) how to bring someone safely to the surface.

You go teaching an OW student to pump air into a BCD to initiate a rescue and you're going to be rescuing two divers. Then again, you're not going to be seeing too many OW students at 100 feet with HP100's trying to rescue somebody.

BTW - the buoyancy swing on those HP100's is more like 7.5 lbs.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)