Thoughts on Air Integrated (hoseless) computers

[geraldp]

I use a Cressi mini spg/depth gauge console as a backup, just because I don't want to be at 100 ft without this vital information in the event of a transmitter or computer failure.

For my first 40 or so dives I had a ScubaPro mini SPG & depth guage in a console to back up my Cobra, but abandoned it in an attempt to get myself more streamlined. Besides I reasoned that unless I also had a Bottom Timer and a copy of the tables (or memorized them) they wouldn't give me that much of an advantage. So now my back up is my buddy

 

[charlesml3]

Wow, a lot of discussion on this. It seems to break down into two categories:

- Old-style gauge people who believe dive computers are inherently unreliable.

- Computer people who believe their computers are just as reliable as gauges.

What I find interesting is all the claims either way but no data to support them. As near as I can tell, gauges very rarely fail. I've only seen one that did. In addition, I've never seen a computer fail but I've only been paying attention to them for the past 8 years or so (out of a 25 year diving career).

I'd sure like to see some numbers on failure rates of both.

-Charles

 

[geraldp]

I mean no offense to Suunto users but I don't think I would use a computer that does not provide for user-changeable batteries.

None taken here

Actually most of the Suuntos offer user-replaceable batteries: the Vytecs, Vypers, Cobras, Mosquito, D3, Gekko, & the HelO2 all have user-replaceable batteries.

It looks like the D4/D6/D9 & Stinger do not.

 

[ScubaSteve]

None taken here

Actually most of the Suuntos offer user-replaceable batteries: the Vytecs, Vypers, Cobras, Mosquito, D3, Gekko, & the HelO2 all have user-replaceable batteries.

It looks like the D4/D6/D9 & Stinger do not.

To be clear Suunto only advertises the Cobra 2 & 3 as user-replaceable. The original Cobra is not.

 

[geraldp]

Wow, a lot of discussion on this. It seems to break down into two categories:

- Old-style gauge people who believe dive computers are inherently unreliable.

- Computer people who believe their computers are just as reliable as gauges.

I'd sure like to see some numbers on failure rates of both.

As ScubaSteve points out hoseless AI Computers are a potential failure point. But, if you're willing to take the risk, go for it. Anecdotal evidence shows that for rec diving the risk is acceptable.

The DIR tech community shuns all computers (except their brain), and they're very particular about which guages they use. Monitoring the 5th D list server it looks like lower quality guages fail occasionaly in extreme environments.

 

[charlesml3]

As ScubaSteve points out hoseless AI Computers are a potential failure point.

Well yea. But so is the hose on a standard brass gauge. I could make the argument that a hoseless AI is MORE reliable because it has no hose. However, I have no numbers or data to back up that claim. It seems that all I ever see is anecdotes. Most of them start with "I knew a guy who..."

I really don't want to bring DIR into this. They represent a tiny fraction of all divers worldwide. They also do highly technical dives which again put them in a very small minority

All I know is that I make a few hundred dives a year and I pay attention to what other people use. Over the past 8 or so years, my observances indicate that dive computers are just as reliable as a gauge.

Personally, I switched over to a computer several years ago and it's been fine. No issues. It's an older one so it has its quirks but I've gotten to know them and can live with it. I really like being able to sawtooth my profile without worry or coming up WAY too soon due to computing the entire bottom time at the max depth I ever hit.

I use the AI feature of my computer. It tells me "Estimated Dive Time Remaining" based on my current gas consumption. Here's what I do : I occasionally go into deco after several days of repetitive dives. Not really a big deal. I think the most I ever served was 11 minutes at 10 feet. At any rate, once I go into deco, I note how long the stop is, and compare that to my AI dive time remaining. I make sure I keep that ahead of the deco stop requirement. Yes, I allow some backup gas as well. That way I can continue the dive a bit longer and still have plenty of gas for the deco stop and a reserve.

-Charles

 

[jd950]

I understand the concept, but I feel the whole "failure point" thing is overblown and sometimes just an example of groupthink among some divers. If diving in more hazardous conditions (overhead, significant entanglement risk, greater depth, extreme low viz, etc.), a diver should make equipment choices accordingly and give greater consideration to redundancy.

That said, most dive gear is capable of failure, and although I doubt one could find statistics on this, I suspect a Bourdon tube contained in a case comprised partly of glass and connected to a first stage by a hose with two connections and therefore 2 O rings is just as much a failure point as a transmitter attached to a first stage.

I have seen failed SPGs and have had two of them fail, one a brass and glass and one a Dive Rite mini. I suspect there are many more, and even more that don't fail completely but become unreliable or erratic (the picture below isn't mine, I found it in another thread here).

Besides, a failure of an spg, whether mechanical or electronic, hoseless or "hosed" doesn't kill you, it just ends the dive. Whether you are in a cave or in a wreck or doing a drift dive at Cozumel, if you don't know what's left in your tank, it's probably time to get out of the water. If that is an issue, backup your computer (or your spg) with an spg or even a pony gauge.

 

[charlesml3]

If diving in more hazardous conditions (overhead, significant entanglement risk, greater depth, extreme low viz, etc.), a diver should make equipment choices accordingly and give greater consideration to redundancy.

That's EXACTLY right. Use the right tool for the job. I see far too many divers both out on the water and here on Scubaboard who'll defend a certain setup even though it's not applicable to the situation at hand. "More" is not always "better."

-Charles

 

[ScubaSteve]

TO start out, I am not defending or selling any particular set-up. I am not GUE or DIR or BMW or ABS or CPP or CPA or CGA or GMC......you name it I am not. Nor did I claim that that particular failure point meant certain death.

All you have to know is that it adds a failure point. As long as you are equipped to overcome that then I say dive whatever you want. I personally do not mind the hose however that may change some day. The HUD is interesting but way too much money for me to bother spending.

As you can see, I am not referencing a particular type of diving or configuration. Let's not imply anything that is not there folks.

I could make the argument that a hoseless AI is MORE reliable because it has no hose.

I do so hope you are not serious here. I am not saying one should or should not dive a hoseless AI computer but to even consider saying that a hose is an equal failure point to the wireless function? Really?

I understand the concept, but I feel the whole "failure point" thing is overblown and sometimes just an example of groupthink among some divers. If diving in more hazardous conditions (overhead, significant entanglement risk, greater depth, extreme low viz, etc.), a diver should make equipment choices accordingly and give greater consideration to redundancy..........

I do not understand how anybody can say that knowing what COULD happen and having a plan for that possible event could possibly be overblown. This is just being a safe diver IMO. A person can just as easily die in 10 feet of water with no current and clear water if something happens that they were not prepared for. Point is, if you know what could happen and how to overcome those possibilities, you improve your chances of surfacing safely from every dive. Otherwise it might just be blind luck that allows you to surface safely. Luck does tend to run out though.

"More" is not always "better."

But a PREPARED diver is always a better diver.

 

[NCadiver]

To be clear Suunto only advertises the Cobra 2 & 3 as user-replaceable. The original Cobra is not.

The Orignal Cobra batteries are user-replaceable.

I have been dive hoseless computer since the came out 1995 starting with the Data Trans with is still working. And my friend had a Cochran when they first came out a year before the Data Trans. currently I use my D9 and VT3 and the both work great and before my hoseless day I had a Tekna AI computer out of O/W. AI is the way to go and it just as reliable a SPG gauge. A AI computer is going to work or not a SPG can sort of work and not in your favor.

Ask one of the DIR or GUE guy if the would take a standard pressure gauge on one of their dive, Their answer would be no it unrealizable. As long as you maintain your equipment you should not have a problem. Change batteries replace hose you no the routine