Toby

[Doppler]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...


I take it from this response you've never suffered or had a buddy suffer a free-flow.
SNIPPED

Generally speaking, I dive with people I like, so if they were to need air, I'd share.

Groundhog... and others... I want to suggest a drill that you and your buddies might wanna practice from time to time. I know the age-old 'single-tank-diver' response to a freeflow is to get to the surface, but try this: shut down the "freeflowing" reg... breathing off your buddy's octo. Wait 30 seconds and turn the valve back on... If you can't reach it yourself, practice until you can. This often will stop the freeflow...

DD

 

[detroit diver]

You're absolutely correct. Not only is diving NOTan exception, but the consequences are potentially life threatening. That's why having someone willing to help is critical.

cat once bubbled...
heck, in the "pick a buddy" check.

"If I run out are you going to share air? Or are you going to watch me shoot for the surface and lecture me afterwards (assuming there is an afterwards) on why I should have *known* my reg was going to freeze or that o-ring was going to burst or my hose was going to break or... or."

I'm a diving newbie and have a new-to-me gear configuration so I did a lot of shared-air drills in the pool before hitting the lakes again this season. I'm glad I did. Free-flows and freezeups *happen*.

So do screwups. In other fields of human endeavour it is always possible for someone, no matter how experienced and well-trained, to suffer a brain fart (can I say fart or would you prefer flattus?) and screw up royally. Is diving an exception?

 

[DivingGal]

Doppler once bubbled...
Groundhog... and others... I want to suggest a drill that you and your buddies might wanna practice from time to time. I know the age-old 'single-tank-diver' response to a freeflow is to get to the surface, but try this: shut down the "freeflowing" reg... breathing off your buddy's octo. Wait 30 seconds and turn the valve back on... If you can't reach it yourself, practice until you can. This often will stop the freeflow...

DD

It's advice like this that I look for on the board.

 

[jbd]

there is no drawing a line on depth as to what is the absolute perfect solution. In any given situation, we all need as many ways out of the event as is possible. All of the techniques mentioned in this thread are what we have available to us. It should be fully understood that having a competent, well trained buddy that is willing to help is the best situation to be in if things go all to sh*t underwater. It also helps tremendously if the diver who ends up in trouble is competent and well trained also.

The fact is, thats not the way it is. You can find posts all over this board about the "deplorable" level of training that exists. Couple this with the fact that most divers don't dive frequently and certainly don't practice skills in rescue and self rescue it would make sense that an emergency underwater will result in two people being dead as opposed to one. That is the point that seahunter is making,IMHO, when he mentions the statistics.

I've been there done that twice and I can tell you that a drowning person will in fact kill you to save their own life. This why we teach releases and defensive methods when teaching rescue. No human being is morally obligated to sacrifice their life for another person no matter how noble or heroic the situation.

With proper training and PRACTICE it is possible to reasonably safely rescue someone and hopefully that rescue occurs before the sitaution turns to full blown panic.

Panic is best avoided through knowledge and proper training of all individuals in any given situation.

Take seahunters comments in the context of two divers that dive infrequently, say one trip every couple of years, and without further training beyond the OW certification.

 

[detroit diver]

Sorry, I'm not buying that load.

There is no perfect solution. But there is a chance to save someone in trouble. Forcing someone to do a CESA because you're worried about what MAY happen is garbage. Especially in the context of a new diver. Chances are that the new diver will hold their breath and embolize. That's what you're advocating.

Yes, we have all the techniques available. So why don't you use them as they are intended??? What's your other choice, do nothing? That's what you advocate. And read seahunter's webpage. He's a shop owner with supposed credentials up the ying yang, and he wouldn't think twice about letting someone get into trouble. What the hell does he teach at his store? Is that the message he gives to his shop instructors and DM's, and in turn to his students? He won't even donate his octo!!

I guess if you don't feel a moral obligation to help someone who's life depends on it, you have no morals in my book. And this is from two guys that supposedly have the ability to handle a situation like this-you learned it in your rescue class.

Pathetic.

jbd once bubbled...
there is no drawing a line on depth as to what is the absolute perfect solution. In any given situation, we all need as many ways out of the event as is possible. All of the techniques mentioned in this thread are what we have available to us. It should be fully understood that having a competent, well trained buddy that is willing to help is the best situation to be in if things go all to sh*t underwater. It also helps tremendously if the diver who ends up in trouble is competent and well trained also.

The fact is, thats not the way it is. You can find posts all over this board about the "deplorable" level of training that exists. Couple this with the fact that most divers don't dive frequently and certainly don't practice skills in rescue and self rescue it would make sense that an emergency underwater will result in two people being dead as opposed to one. That is the point that seahunter is making,IMHO, when he mentions the statistics.

I've been there done that twice and I can tell you that a drowning person will in fact kill you to save their own life. This why we teach releases and defensive methods when teaching rescue. No human being is morally obligated to sacrifice their life for another person no matter how noble or heroic the situation.

With proper training and PRACTICE it is possible to reasonably safely rescue someone and hopefully that rescue occurs before the sitaution turns to full blown panic.

Panic is best avoided through knowledge and proper training of all individuals in any given situation.

Take seahunters comments in the context of two divers that dive infrequently, say one trip every couple of years, and without further training beyond the OW certification.

 

[wetvet]

Doppler, interesting idea, but I have a vague memory of being told that breathing two folks off a first stage makes freeflow way more likely.....by letting buddy breathe off your octo, are you not in danger of having a double header freeflow?.....then if his didnt fix..... please correct me if Im wrong
I know you tekkie types have this better looked after with the two first stages, but us single tank guys could get into trouble. BTW, I would refuse to share air with anyone who has better equipment than I do....I always try to buddy with someone about my size ....anyone with a XXL drysuit wanna go ice diving?


Wetvet

 

[DivingGal]

wetvet once bubbled...
Doppler, interesting idea, but I have a vague memory of being told that breathing two folks off a first stage makes freeflow way more likely.....by letting buddy breathe off your octo, are you not in danger of having a double header freeflow?

I believe what Doppler is saying is the diver with the freeflow is shutting their tank off, and breathing off the octo from their buddy -- who has a stable system.

So I don't see a "double header freeflow" occuring.

 

[jbd]

I have the training and the experience to affect a rescue and that is what I would do. I'm also smart enough to realize, from experience, that there may come a point in the rescue where it might be best for me to save myself and finish the rescue at the surface. Once again, "A dead medic is of no use to anyone".

I teach air sharing(octo) and buddy breathing. We do this several times until I see that the people I'm working with are comfortable with it. This involves progressiviely longer swims to reach a buddy so that it is understood that just the simple fact of losing your air does not mean you will in fact die; therefore you need not panic.

I also teach CESA and do not see a proper performed CESA as being live threatening event. I will grant that the risk of being injured goes up but it doesn't mean you will die just because you did a CESA. I honestly don't see why people are so completely terrified of this technique. Actually I do have my opinion on why.

Knowledge, training and practice are key to avoiding problems as well as being key to properly handling problems if they do occur.

Now as to seahunter and his credentials---if he has put himself in a postion of incurring a legal obligation to respond then he will have to face the consequences of his actions. Higher training does incur a higher level of responsibility.

Actually one of the things that was covered in the rescue course was that there is no obligation to make a rescue, but once you do start the attempt you must perform up to standards for the level of training that you have and you can not just abandon the attempt.

 

[detroit diver]

JBD,

You validated this:

"For me personally who was trained on two hose and how to buddy breath on two hose (quite a trick I'll tell you!), I would not buddy breath with another diver in an emergency. If he runs out of air, he can damn well go to the surface. ...."

"In training in the 60's, we buddy breathed with 2 hose regs while blacked out, up-side down, without masks, without fins and during serious harassment from the instructors so it's not a matter of not being able to buddy breath - it's a conscious decision to not do it!
The octopus has made the share air exercise a lot safer and the emergency more manageable but still to be avoided at all costs. In less than 30', in an out-of-air emergency you should go up. I assume you've been trained to make a controlled emergency ascent! "

"Take a Rescue Diver course and learn about staying away from dumb, dangerous divers. Anyone think a diver who runs out of air isn't dumb and dangerous?"

with this:

"I also agree with seahunter that a CESA may well be the most logical choice especially on low viz shallow dives. Every diver, again IMHO, should have the practiced ability to perform a CESA."

Whose choice is it? The guy with no air struggling to the surface? I ask you again, where do you draw the line? 30 ft, 40 ft, 50 ft?

I won't argue the issue about the point in the rescue where it is best to save yourself. That is wise and prudent. But that's not what we're talking about here. What we're dealing with is the decison to help in the first place.

CESA is the last ditch option when NOTHING else is available to you. Yes, training may make this safer, but it's a lost cause scenario only to be used when the only other option is death. If you're sitting back watching someone OOA and don't make a move to help them because of what MIGHT happen, that is just plain obscene. Your last post seems to mitigate your previous post somewhat in that you say you WOULD affect a rescue. I hope that this is your real feeling and course of action that an OOA person could expect.

 

[seahunter]

Well detroit, you've had your say!
You're a better diver than we are.
You're more moral than we are.
You know more about diver mentality and training than we do.
You are the hero and will save every diver in trouble for us.
We got your message so now you can relax in the knowledge that it got through. Stop shouting!!
Please email your resume and diving credentials to Ms. Stanborough at dive@scuba2000.com . We've been looking for the 'perfect' scuba facility employee for many years.

Check out how you've interpreted my comments:
At no time did I say I wouldn't help a diver in trouble.
At no time did I say I wouldn't help my buddy if he was in trouble.
At no time did I say I wouldn't share air.
At no time did I say I wouldn't donate my octo.
At no time did I say I'd laugh as my buddy shot to the surface.
At no time did I say I would allow my buddy to "suffer".

I did say "...I would not buddy breath with another diver."
Where did you come up with all this other s...?
It doesn't sound to me as though you so much interested in discussing the topic as you are in twisting my words and shooting off! In the last few posts you've added nothing of any value. Even other readers have tried to straighten you out but you're too bullheaded to listen. Whatever..

With respect to your denigrating comments about my scuba facility and staff, I will say that we've been directly responsible for the training of close to 20,000 divers from which hundreds of instructors and store owners in dozens of different countries have developed. The effective total today is almost uncalculable.
Big deal!! You're right. It's not the number of divers I've trained that really matters. But it is the number of divers who I've helped in an emergency during all that training that have given me a firm grip on the reality of diving problems and hence my comments.

My comments don't come from a few years and couple of screw-ups. They come from 45 years of diving and 34 years in the scuba industry. They come from first hand observation of divers who didn't have their head on straight and paid the price. They come from listening to touchy-feely divers who would "always help their buddy regardless of the circumstances" and paid the price. They come from being part of investigations of other's diving tragedies. They come from a strong sense of self preservation because I'm no good to myself, my buddy, my family or anyone if I don't return from a dive. It's that sense that has kept me safe through thousands of dives in every harsh environment with many dive buddies who were not completely comfortable underwater.

Re-read your own posts DD. Then try to make an objective evaluation of who in this thread has an attitude; who in this thread clearly doesn't understand a thing about safe diving; who in this thread hasn't the sense to listen to and consider a different viewpoint.

To those in control, to those who want to improve their diving skills and become better divers, do as I suggested in the beginning before DD lost it and look up the diving accident stats. The stats don't tell you everything but they do make you think about and perhaps re-order your priorities.
Buddy Breathing is history and good riddance.
Controlled Emergency Ascents are quite safe, are taught to new divers, are performed by new divers in their first open water dives and are the logical choice in an out-of-air emergency in shallow water.
Safe Seconds may help in the rest of the circumstances.

I will sleep well tonight knowing that DD will NOT be diving in the same body of water as I. Good luck to the rest of you. And before you lump me in with all the other name-calling a..holes, this is not a baseless personal insult nor a reference to his diving skills about which I have no knowledge. He may be a fine diver. I am very concerned about his inability to accept that someone else has a viewpoint - maybe even a better viewpoint based on experience and knowledge.
Dive buddies who are always right are almost as dangerous as dive buddies who are always wrong. At least you can prepare for the latter.