U.S. Not Doing Enough to Protect Coral Reefs

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Gas emissions, sewage and oil spills in the seas, waste being landfilled or incinerated, and nuclear troubles are all major concerns for this world. Essentially a lot of this can be prevented by work from the top down and bottom up - that is better regulations, setting reasonable standards and systematically improving them over time, making industrial/commercial businesses pay for their pollution (they are far larger polluters than all domestic waste/emissions put together and dont see it as economically possible to be green - it has to be made possible and make being ungreen - brown - a bad and expensive thing) and once businesses start putting an emphasis on this then hopefully employees will also do likewise. If legislation forces industry to be greener it will filter down, if those who are green at home can try to change (in what ways they can) the workplace environmental impacts for the better then maybe it will be easier - its a group effort. I know i am an optimist and a dreamer, but it is all possible, it just requires some efforts, planning and commitment.
 
Boogie711. I am not flying of the handel just emphasizing my view.
However I get the feeling you take a lot for granted, eg this is worse than that, dumping v GHG and I asked you to present the facts this you have not done. I am not saying I have the numbers but asking do you ?. I would be very happy to go over them and if I am wrong then I will give you an apology then not take it for granted that you will get or deserve one
 
I agree with simbrooks - the problem is that capitalism is wasteful and requires us to destroy the planet in order to make a buck or two. I am as guilty of pollution as all of us divers - drive to the dive site then use all that kit/energy just to look at some old sunken ship..
Global warming is real and is destroying the planet and the reefs. BUT yes, so too are sewage, boat moorings, dynamite fishing and so on. I think arguing about which is the most damaging is pointless, they are all bad. Just because someone else is doing something bad doesn't make what you and I do better...
The real question is what to do about it. I am not about to give up my car and buy a donkey any more than anyone else. We can do a little - fly a bit less, switch the light off, whatever. That might make a bit of a change, but the increasing standard of living in China wipes it out at a stroke. We need new technologies - biofuel for example. That is where the US can really make a positive difference (and some dollars) but Bush is in love with oil and fights against such things. That was my point all along. I'm sorry if it got lost in the detail. I'm anti Bush not anti US.
As I said God help your grandchildren... Particularly if you are one of those weirdos who think gloabal warming is a myth, boy are they gonna dis you..
Chris
 
chrisch:
We need new technologies - biofuel for example. That is where the US can really make a positive difference (and some dollars) but Bush is in love with oil and fights against such things. That was my point all along. I'm sorry if it got lost in the detail. I'm anti Bush not anti US.
As I said God help your grandchildren... Particularly if you are one of those weirdos who think gloabal warming is a myth, boy are they gonna dis you..
Chris

Bush has only been here a few years and can only be here a few more at the outside. Presidents don't develope new technologies anyway. Industry does that and they don't do it until economics forces them. Laws that force them into it, especially too fast, just raise the cost through the roof and then we may all just be getting that mule you mentioned. Hell I already wear a car out faster than I can pay for it (cuz I have to drive so far to get to work). If the cost goes up much more I'll be hoofin it. oh and BTW, I live so far from work because a month after I baught a house 4 miles from where I worked they anounced they were closing the plant and moving everything to Mexico. I can't sell my house because of the amount of equity in it and I couldn't afford a house near where I work anyway. Long way to say that increased travel cost would kill me.

The thing that some folks may not realize is that while it might not be too hard to build an engine that runs on a different fuel (at least a protoype) there's a rather large infrastructure built around what we have now. Automotive manufacturers have billions of dollars in tooling designed to build what we have. The financial planning for that tooling was based on how much be built with it compared to how long it would take to get a return on the inventment. To re-tool would caost billions more and how does it become profitable. They have engineers who know the technology and they have suppliers of compoinent parts. There are entire industried built around supplying the automotive industry.

We have gas stations where we buy gas. They get the gas from oil companies who sell gas...not biofuel or whatever the alternative would be.

So...the oil companies go out of business. All the stock holders lose their investment because the value of the company is in a bunch of useless wells. The gas stations close and we have a car without a fuel supply. That won't get us too far.

The other alternative is to transition slow and it'll take many years.

It looks like the next step will be these hybreds that are a combination of electric and gas. I doubt electric cars will ever be good for much other than short commutes but we'll see. In the late seventies I was a technician for Gould. We built a fleet of electric jeeps for...AT&T I think it was. We also built a ford...mmm...I don't remember the model. If you drove real carefuly you could get a couple hundred miles and then you needed to spend 8 hours or so charging the batteries. BTW they had a pack of 20 lead acid batteries to run the drive motor and an additional one for accesseries. No air conditioning or sterio on those puppies.

Batteries may have gotten a little better since then but electric motors haven't changed much I don't think.

Anyway don't look for internal combustion engines to go away overnight. At best it might become common practice to use an electric motor so we use less fosil fuel. At that these cars will likely be pretty expensive for a while. buying 2 motors rather than one, batteries and chargers...sounds like big bucks to me.

In years back I've heard of alternative engine designs that were reported to have been purchased by oil companies and buried. Maybe, but they have a lot to lose and so do the people who work for them and are invested in them.

Planes...I don't use em unless I have to travel on business. I'm 45 and have purchased exactly 2 airline tickets with my own nickle. One was to bring my wife with me on a business trip that I managed to combine with some diving and the other was to get my wife home in an emergency when we were in Florida diving and I couldn't leave to driver her back.

I think the only things that can change quickly are our behaviors on and near the water. If people aren't willing to do that than there isn't any sense in even discussing the other things.

As far as global warming...
I'm no expert but from my limited reading I gather that scientists do NOT agree on whether or not it Global warming even exists and if it does they don't agree on the cause.

I seem to even recall articles suggesting that fluctuations in the size of the "hole in the ozone" may even be normal. There's a whole lot that we don't know and we've been tracking weather and temperature for such a short time.

What we do know is like I said before that a large percentage of the world isn't civilized enough for people of different religions to live near each other without killing each other. What? Half the world? Maybe more is constantly at war. And...some of those places are where all the trees are. So much for getting a handle on the demise of the rain forest.
 
chrisch:
That was my point all along. I'm sorry if it got lost in the detail. I'm anti Bush not anti US.

I don't know if I'm anti-Bush but I'm absolutely and without even a remote shadow of doubt anti-Carrey.
As I said God help your grandchildren... Particularly if you are one of those weirdos who think gloabal warming is a myth, boy are they gonna dis you..
Chris

Before God helps our grandchildren out with tough issues like global warming it looks like we'll need some help with some far simpler issues like comming up with a good solid definition of marriage and little things like that. LOL

And I thought we had that one licked.
 
cdiver2:
Boogie711. I am not flying of the handel just emphasizing my view.
However I get the feeling you take a lot for granted, eg this is worse than that, dumping v GHG and I asked you to present the facts this you have not done. I am not saying I have the numbers but asking do you ?. I would be very happy to go over them and if I am wrong then I will give you an apology then not take it for granted that you will get or deserve one

OK CDiver - it's pretty apparent that you're unfamiliar with the scientific nuances behind climate change... so let me help you out.

Climate Change 101 - Scientists believe that greenhouse gases cause global warming. FACT - this is a theory, and still has not been proven. FACT - the earth's temperature varies back and forth and has ever since it was created. FACT - the Mount Pinatubo explosion released more greenhouse gasses than over 40 years of manmade emissions.

Would you like some numbers? According to the very people responsible for the creation of the Kyoto protocol, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), IF the world spends approximately $500 billion to implement the Kyoto protocol, the world global temperature will still increase approximately 1.9 degrees by the year 2100. This is a worst case scenario. However, if Kyoto is NOT implemented, the global temperature will rise, under worst case scenario's, by 2.0 degrees Celsius.

That $500 billion just saved us 1/10th of a degree. And that's $500 billion ANNUALLY - or enough in the first year alone to deliver clean drinking water to every citizen on earth. Imagine what you could do in year two?

To put it in other terms, a Bangladeshi farmer who needs to abandon his farm due to flooding in 96 years due to global warming will now get an extra 4.5 years, and under Kyoto, only have to move in 101 years.

The full list of IPCC reports can be found at http://www.ipcc.ch/meet/meet_rep.htm if you were so inclined to read them yourself. Make sure you have a good bandwidth connection. I'm not making this up - I urge you to have a good read yourself if you don't believe me. The specific study I'm quoting from is the Wigley report of 1998.

So, CDiver, you tell me what a stronger threat to a reef ecosystem is - a gradual warming, or someone dumping untreated sewage waste?
 
chrisch:
We need new technologies - biofuel for example. That is where the US can really make a positive difference (and some dollars) but Bush is in love with oil and fights against such things. That was my point all along. I'm sorry if it got lost in the detail. I'm anti Bush not anti US.

You know what, Chris - yesterday I filled my Jetta with biodiesel fuel at a gas station in Unionville, Ontario. The biodiesel was imported from a bio-fuel refinery in Tennesee.

How easy is it for you to get biodiesel or ethanol where you are? Oh wait - biodiesel and ethanol are American inventions, aren't they?

Yeah - you probably can't get them because your Prime Minister is in bed with the oil companies or something???

Come on dude. Don't let your blind hatred get in the way of facts.
 
I think it's time for a few concrete facts:

Per capita CO2 emissions / 1000 population measured in metric tons.

US 19.84
Australia 16.84
Canada 16.18
Russia 10.65
Japan 9.62
UK 9.28
China 2.69
India 0.96

The full list can be found here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi_cap


A question and answer sheet about the Bush administrations attitude to Kyoto can be found here:
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/akyotoqa.asp

In 1998 the effect of sea water temperature rise destroyed up to 85% of coral between the Maldives and Japan.

Price to be paid by who and for what?
I would say: By parents for their children and grand-children.

Lets face it - whatever the reason - gone is gone - be it coral, fish, breathable air, safe weather, Polar ice-caps (I could go on - but surely you know what I mean!)
 
Boogie711:
Climate Change 101 - Scientists believe that greenhouse gases cause global warming. FACT - this is a theory, and still has not been proven. FACT - the earth's temperature varies back and forth and has ever since it was created.

In all fairness to climate modelers, Boogie's FACT #2 (above) is the reason why FACT #1 is expected to remain in that status. I don't know a single oceanographer that even has a vague idea about how to reliably ascertain the global effects of manmade greenhouse emissions.
But this isn't the real problem. The real problem is that modern man is used to the global climate of NOW, and global warming (whatever its source) will screw everything up. You know... the coastal flooding, increased hurricane frequencies, dramatic shifts in weather patterns, more sunburn, blah blah.

Global warming isn't even the topic of this post, I thought it was bashing America. No wait, that's not it either!
 
KimLeece:
In 1998 the effect of sea water temperature rise destroyed up to 85% of coral between the Maldives and Japan.

Kim - thank you for mentioning a very current point about warming ocean water. I didn't want to bring it up, but if you insist, I refer to an article which appeared in Monday's newspaper.

Maldives nurses it's coral back to life.

And why did the coral die in the first place? From the El Nino ocean current phenomenon... which has existed LONG before increased greenhouse gas emissions.

If you had $500 billion to spend on the environment, would you deliver clean drinking water to every citizen of earth, or would you defer greenhouse gas emissions for one year? I think my Grandchildren would prefer the clean drinking water, thank you very much.
 

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