UW Sports Seattle - Requiring 6" Nitrox Sticker ---ARRRGH!

[H2oVolk]

After having read the 12 pages of posts on this subject on a different thread... I give up.

It is everyones right to patronize or not to patronize any shop they wish - point granted.

Compressors are available for sale and anyone can purchase one and fill their own cylinders - point granted.

Shops have liability, insurance, safety, and morality of business practice issues that are theirs to deal with and they have the right to do anything they feel they need to do to mitigate these issue - point granted.

There is no governing body set up to pass nitrox laws so noone is ever going to jail because of the marking that are or aren't on their cylinders - point granted.

That being said... It is my firmly held belief that bands help to keep dangerous situations from happening. I don't subscribe to the "if someone grabs/steals/uses my cylinder and it has something other than air in it, it is their problem" belief. I've been diving for 2+ decades and have had the opportunity to do some unbelievable dives, teach some awsome people, and meet some great friends... I am a technical diver, my cylinders are banded (some w/ 4" stickers, some with 6" stickers and some with 1" bands), I dive a B/P & wing, but I don't drink the Coolaid.

I believe that if your LDS requires banding it isn't a matter of them just wanting to F#)\ with you... they have a legitimate concern, issue, or reason for their policy. I would suggest calmly asking them about it and seeing if there is some middle ground you can reach with them.

I don't want to start a jihad, these are just my views... you all are welcome to believe as you will - I'm not looking for converts.

Be safe one and all...

 

[Damselfish]

I agree, the point of the big tacky colorful sticker is to make it obvious to someone who doesn't know better that maybe they shouldn't use a tank. Obvious is a matter of opinion and perhaps location.

At one end of the spectrum, I agree it ought to be obvious to someone that the doubles "aren't their tank" and insisting on stickers like that is probably silly. At the other end, a bit of masking tape doesn't scream anything special to many people and a name written on a tank may not be noticed if someone isn't looking for it, especially when things manage to get jumbled up somehow in a tank fill area. In the middle, I don't have a problem with a shop requiring a sticker on single tanks, and I don't have a problem with the color scheme (there is something to be said for standards), but if they take it to the point of being super anal about dimensions and missing the spirit of the idea, then I might wonder if they have a clue. And yes, it's the shops business to set rules as they see fit and customers business to patronize them or not, as they see fit.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That being said... It is my firmly held belief that bands help to keep dangerous situations from happening. I don't subscribe to the "if someone grabs/steals/uses my cylinder and it has something other than air in it, it is their problem" belief. I've been diving for 2+ decades and have had the opportunity to do some unbelievable dives, teach some awsome people, and meet some great friends... I am a technical diver, my cylinders are banded (some w/ 4" stickers, some with 6" stickers and some with 1" bands), I dive a B/P & wing, but I don't drink the Coolaid.

The issue I have with bands is simply this ... they don't tell you what's actually in the cylinder. All they do is provide a visual reference that the cylinder MIGHT contain something besides air ... and even THAT's not a given, as there's nothing to preclude putting air in a cylinder prepared for nitrox use.

Proper nitrox markings MUST include EAN percentage and MOD. Wraps don't provide that information.

If the proper markings are prominently visible on the crown of my cylinder, the wrap isn't going to add any value whatsoever ... the mix and MOD information is right up there where anyone putting a reg on that tank is going to see it.

I'm not looking for a debate either ... and it's got nothing to do with Kool Aid ... I just prefer doing things because there's a rational reason for doing it ... not because somebody says I'm supposed to.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[H2oVolk]

I'll agree that Nitrox cylinders must absolutely be marked with Content and MOD information.
I believe that the bands are not there for you, but for others who may end up with the cylinder by accident. The band is a very pronounced indicator that there may be something in the cylinder besides air... when they see the band, even if they don't know what the contents, etc. mean - they will definitely see the band.

I'm done.

 

[Rainer]

I'll agree that Nitrox cylinders must absolutely be marked with Content and MOD information.
I believe that the bands are not there for you, but for others who may end up with the cylinder by accident. The band is a very pronounced indicator that there may be something in the cylinder besides air... when they see the band, even if they don't know what the contents, etc. mean - they will definitely see the band.


I'm done.

Band or no band, there MAY be something other than air in ANY cylinder. Bands don't solve that.

Edit: A contents sticker tells you EXACTLY what a cylinder contains.

 

[DennisS]

I've had someone take my tank and use it on a dive boat. It has my last name, 7 letters in inch high letters around the neck. You would think they would notice it when putting on the regulator. It had air and it was a 60 ft dive. No problem. There are Darwins out there and the big band screams, this is not your air tank. A little sticker on the side wouldn't be noticed. New divers aren't looking for it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've had someone take my tank and use it on a dive boat. It has my last name, 7 letters in inch high letters around the neck. You would think they would notice it when putting on the regulator. It had air and it was a 60 ft dive. No problem. There are Darwins out there and the big band screams, this is not your air tank. A little sticker on the side wouldn't be noticed. New divers aren't looking for it.

If they didn't notice inch-high letters on the crown of your cylinder ... which they'd literally have to stare at while connecting the regulator ... what makes you think they're going to notice a tank band on the side of the tank?

And what if the tank they were supposed to use also had the same tank band on it? How would yours "stand out"?

You can't legislate against stupidity and carelessness, ya know ... and "dumbing down" safety protocols to protect people who refuse to pay attention just enables more complacency ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[diver12345]

A little more info on them. They state that is is industry standard for the bands but I dont remember seeing a book with such title. Then they try the old PADI requires it. Well I also dont remember PADI being in the tank cert bussiness. I know that is what they teach in their nitrox class but just cause PADI does it doesnt make it right. Now as for the tanks with the big nitrox logo it is actually against the law to put air into those tanks. Nitrox is a different classification of gas than air. But they still do that. Seams to me they bend the rules as long as it makes them some $$. The fact is their is no law requiring this and now they will lose my bussiness and anyone elses I run into if I have anything to say about it,and boy do I. Underwater sports

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If I'm not mistaken, the tank band recommendation comes from PSI ... the organization that runs courses in how to perform VIPs on scuba cylinders.

Also, there is no proscription against putting air in a nitrox cylinder ... and the only "law" that has anything to do with scuba cylinder usage is one from the Dept. of Transportation that requires hydrostatic testing every five years. No laws exist that have anything to do with nitrox ... what you're dealing with are industry-recognized practices and individual shop policies.

By definition, air is just another blend of nitrox (EAN21). What you have to be careful about is how the air is filtered. If the air is properly filtered ... which it would be if it comes from a station that's properly configured to blend nitrox ... then there's nothing wrong with putting air in a cylinder that's been prepared for nitrox. However, many garage setups, and air from shops that don't also offer nitrox, is usually not filtered adequately to prevent an unacceptable level of hydrocarbons from entering the cylinder. Adding inadequately-filtered air to your nitrox-cleaned cylinder will then require it to be cleaned again before it is suitable for nitrox use.

FWIW - the only permanent marking on your cylinder that's REQUIRED for nitrox is your VIP sticker. It should state on the VIP sticker whether or not the cylinder has been cleaned for nitrox. There are two levels of nitrox cleaning ... one that allows blends up to 40% to be added to the cylinder, and one that allows up to 100% oxygen. The latter is required if the fill station is using partial pressure blending to fill your cylinders. However, if the nitrox is continuous blended, or if it's being pumped from banks, then only a "nitrox ready" VIP is required.

All of this should have been covered in your nitrox class. If dive shops would teach the class properly ... following the curriculum established by their agencies ... there wouldn't be a need to slap silly banner ads all over tanks to protect poorly-trained divers from themselves. The nitrox specialty is probably the easiest class there is in diving ... and they STILL can't seem to get it right.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

People can and do do wacky things and stupid things. I guess I can see some reason behind SOME kind of marking on a tank that makes it more obvious that it's got something odd in it than a piece of masking tape will do.

But doubles . . . That's silly. Anybody far enough into diving to be using doubles should know enough to look at the mix.

About six months ago, I asked some friends who were coming to dinner to stop and pick up my doubles for me, since they would drive right by the dive shop. I described the tanks to them as well as I could, and didn't worry, because the shop proprietors know my tanks, too. Unfortunately, neither of the usual staff was there when my friends stopped. They picked up a set of white doubled 85s with a rust ring around the bands, as instructed. When they got them to my house, I went out and discovered, to my horror, that they were not only not my tanks, but according to the tape on them, were full of 18/45. This mean that somebody who might be planning a tech dive for the following day was now tankless!

So we now have anecdotal evidence that divers who have TAKEN a Nitrox class can fail to note or properly read a tank label -- BUT that the person owning and diving those doubles read the label just fine. I don't see the need on doubles (and my current LDS does not require any special label on them).