water in first stage ???

[John C. Ratliff]

I agree with the other people that there's likely no harm done to the regulator. I was at an IQ conference (the Sixth International Conference on Underwater Education) in the 1970s where a Dacor engineer, who was quite experienced, actually recommended submersing the regulator, cap off, in fresh water after a salt water dive. He stated that the fresh water would do no harm to the inside of the regulator, and it would remove the salt water mist from the regulator, and from the inside. He also recommended purging it afterward for a good amount of time to dry everything out.

However, I would get your regulator serviced, and charge the guy for it. This kind of foolishness needs to be tamed somehow, and what better methodology than hitting the pocket book.

Tell this idiot that there have been a number of deaths from people trying to breath HP helium for the speech effect, and embolizing. No matter the gas, this is a dangerous practice.

SeaRat

 

[BartBe]

Thanks guys...

If there would be any water in my SPG, would I get condensation in it ?? or is that part completely closed off ?

 

[Diver0001]

BartBe once bubbled...
Thanks guys...

If there would be any water in my SPG, would I get condensation in it ?? or is that part completely closed off ?

The part isn't generally sealed. Most of them have a bourdon (sp?) tube in them where the water could go.. You probably won't see any condensation and I wouldn't worry about it being damaged although I repeat my advice that you should get it serviced courtesy of the guy who did it.

As for getting the water out of a flooded 1st stage. I'd personally remove all the hoses and just blow it out on a tank without anything attached and one or two LP ports and the HP port open. (might be a good idea to throw a towel over it when you do this). It's probably not necessary to go that far but it can't hurt.

R..

 

[hantzu701]

I normally soak my 1st stage covered with the dust cap in a tub of water, so I became concerned about water in the 1st stage after reading this thread. I had been under the assumption that it wasn't a big deal if there was water in the 1st stage.

I took off the hoses and opened one of the spare HP ports. I found a few little droplets of condensation which I wiped with a tissue paper. After relubricating the o-rings, I put the hoses back on.

As I don't intend to dive for another two months, should I be concerned?

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I have a book that does a good job of describing the Bourdon tube (named after the inventor, I believe, which is why it is capitalized. Fred Roberts was a verywell-known author who described early diving equipment:

The Bourdon tube depth gauge is the most expensive and dependable of the group discussed. The Bourdon principle isa well established method of pressure measurement and will be found in almost all types of pressure guages.

Figure 2-4(.) shows the Bourdon tube assembly. THis unit, for depth measurement, would be put into a water and pressure proof case with the inlet of the tube exposed tothe water. This inlet is protected by fine screens to keep dirt and foreign matter out. Inside the pressure case the air is at atmospheric pressure.

The operation of the bourdon tube is quite simple; the tube is part (1), its cross section is often shaped like (8). The other mechanism is needed to translate the movement of the tube into needle movement. When water enters the screens (7), a difference of pressure exists from water pressure in the tube proper (1) and the air trapped in the case and surrounding the tube. As water pressure is greater than the trapped air pressure, it tends to bend the flat surfaces of the tube into a circle, which moves the whole tube from a semi-circular shape to a straight pipe. An arrow on the figure indicates the direction of movement of the straightening Bourdon tube.

When the Bourdon tube moves away from the central mechanism, it pulls lever (2) along with it. Lever (2) in turn pivots the half-gear (3) on its axis. Half-gear (3) is in mesh with the needle shaft gear (5) which moves the needle (4) along the calibrated face (not shown).

When water pressure decreases as the diver ascends, the hair spring (6) pulls the needle back as the Bourdon tube returns to its semi-circular shape as in the original cross section (8). The gauge mechanism is thus made for a definite limit--if abused the tube could expand outwardly and hit the outer case, or the spring could be would too tightly. Exceeding the maximum mark on the scale will damage the gauge. If the pressure proof case should leak and water get inside the gauge housing, it will rust the hair spring and the gauge needle will not move since the pressure will be the same on both sides of the Bourdon tube.

The Bourdon tube gauge can be made very accurately. It is rugged and will last a very longtime. Recently the Bourdon tube depth gauge has been combined with a compass. The needles either share a common shaft, or some models provide a separate space on the lens for the compass. This combination is useful and reduces the number ofgadgets the diver wears on his wrists. The calibration is also luminous and the gauge can be read in the dark.

Roberts, Fred M., Basic Scuba, Second Edition, D. Van Nostrand Company, Princeton, New Jersey, 1963, pages 36-37, Figure 4-2 or page 34.

This discussion shows that the Bourdon tube is used in both depth gauges and pressure gauges. If water is inside the tube, it would be equivalent to the water that gets inside the Bourdon tube of a depth gauge. There should be no damage. To have damage, it would need to get inside the case itself, where it can rust things, or damage the electronics in new equipment (not described above). But the inside of the Bourdon tube is absolutely sealed from the inside of the case, or it would not work at all as a pressure gauge. I hope this clarifies the mechanism of the Bourdon tube.

I don't know whether this is the configuration of modern pressure gauges, but if an earlier post is correct, the only change is is the digital readout instead of an analog readout of the Bourdon tube.

SeaRat

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Hantzu701 asks:

I normally soak my 1st stage covered with the dust cap in a tub of water, so I became concerned about water in the 1st stage after reading this thread. I had been under the assumption that it wasn't a big deal if there was water in the 1st stage.

I took off the hoses and opened one of the spare HP ports. I found a few little droplets of condensation which I wiped with a tissue paper. After relubricating the o-rings, I put the hoses back on.

As I don't intend to dive for another two months, should I be concerned?

Re

I would not be concerned about this situation. Blow a bit more air (say 500 psi from an 80 ft3 tank, and that should dry it out sufficiently.

But, I would get an "O" ring for that dust cap. When the dust cap is in place, the water really should not get into the regulator's first stage interior. They used to be made for a spare "O" ring to fit into the seal on the dust cap, and if yours cannot put one onto the cap, get a different dust cap that can. Beside keeping water out of the reg first stage during rinsing (which, by the way, you were doing well), it acts as a spare "O" ring for your tank in case your tank's blows when you try to place the reg on it, which occasionally does happen (more often that an "O" ring problem underwater. That $.25 investment could save a dive.

SeaRat

 

[pasley]

The presence of moisture in the 1st stage is coule be a significant problem. If it results in rust this could be a potentially lethal problem. This year in one of the dive magazines (where they do a lessons learned feature each month) told a story (seems to me it was around March or April) of a diver who died from a little rust in the 1st stage. The below is not a quote, but captures the essence of the article (search this forum for more on this).

Dive has his equipment serviced, then does only a few dives before putting his gear away for a few years (1 or 2). His dive buddy suggest he have the equipment serviced again before diving with it but he declines and saves the cost of having it serviced again. Says he only dove it a few times after the last service.

Shortly into their first dive his buddy observed a few bubbles coming from the first stage. Within a few minutes the bubbles increased in their flow rate until they were clearly a free flow. Distressed diver fought off his buddy and swam away to his death.

The problem, he had a little rust in the 1st stage which was chewing up the o-ring on the piston. Eventually this totally failed and free flowed his air into the ocean. In the meantime the rust was also blocking the very small orifice of the first stage causing him to not get sufficient air. The combination of a lack of air, depth and then a free flowing 1st stage resulted in the diver being essentially narced, hence his swimming away from help.

He died, but he did save the cost of having his regulator serviced after more than a year in storage.

Naturally fresh water is not as corrosive as salt, but I would error on the side of caution, have the regulator serviced, and send the bill to the idiot who took your gear apart under water.

http://divemar.com/Cressi/docs/fx_maint.html covers post dive maintenance of your regulator.

 

[00scuba]

When I was on vacation....i was rinsing my gear in the fresh water tanks...not sure if I sealed the reg correctly...later that day I noticed the cap was off and the plug was out.. Talked to the very experienced DM...said to take a tank and purge the air....all was fine.

I know I won't do that again..i'll be 100% sure it's clamped down!

 

[John C. Ratliff]

pasley stated:

The presence of moisture in the 1st stage is coule be a significant problem. If it results in rust this could be a potentially lethal problem. This year in one of the dive magazines (where they do a lessons learned feature each month) told a story (seems to me it was around March or April) of a diver who died from a little rust in the 1st stage. The below is not a quote, but captures the essence of the article (search this forum for more on this).

If you go to the link pasley provided, it states that the source of the contaminents is very important. The source of rust in the first stage of this regulator most likely was not the regulator. The regulator parts are made of resistant neoprene rubber or silicone rubber, teflon, stainless steel and brass (or at least they used to be; probably still are because the regs have been getting better, not worse). While stainless steel can rust, it would take gross abuse from having salt water inside the regulator. It is highly unlikely that fresh water would damage the regulator in the manner mentioned above. I have seen a reg dunked in salt water in the bottom of a rubber raft for about half an hour, and it seemed not to be too damaged when we took it apart later (but I did chew on the USAF diver who did it). But this was not allowed to sit long inside the reg.

The sourse of the rust was most likely the diver's steel tank. That's why it is important to inspect the "sithered filter" on the inlet of the first stage for discoloration. The type of discoloration showing on the filter will tell you what it is and where it likely came from. This is why it is so important to visually inspect the tank every year, to leave air pressure in the tank, and to ensure that the air going into the tank comes from a reputable dealer who has a compressor/filter assembly that will deliver clean, dry, uncontaminated air. A good shop will have the air sampled, and purity tested periodically, and every time a major change is made to the compressor.

Concerning a regulator that has not been used for quite some time, it's always best to have the reg gone through before diving it. If you are not familiar with regulator repair, ensure that it is serviced at least yearly, just like pasley stated above.

The question in this string is unrelated, and has to do with a little fresh water inside the first stage of the regulator, and the type of damage that specific situation would do. If in doubt, however, it's always better to have it gone through by a qualified regulator service person. By the way, there are people out there who are not qualified to do regulator service, who are doing it though. I ran into one some years ago, and refused to have them look at another regulator of mine.

SeaRat

 

[Dive Source]

hantzu701 once bubbled...

I took off the hoses and opened one of the spare HP ports. I found a few little droplets of condensation which I wiped with a tissue paper. After relubricating the o-rings, I put the hoses back on.

As I don't intend to dive for another two months, should I be concerned?

You might want to be concerned about lubricating your hose orings, as it is not neccesary and can make it
easier for them to extrude (especially if you have a loose hose)

Static (non moving) orings do not require lubrication in your regulator.

If it was only a tiny bit that made them a bit shiny, don't be concerned, but if more than that clean them off.

Regards.

Brian