What is the real difference in certification levels

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No Ray, I certainly don't think of an AOW cert as being an advanced diver. I was only pointing to the significant difference between the PADI and SSI requirements and definitions for the same cert level. For beginner divers, there is a huge difference between having 9 dives and having 25 or more. That's what I thought the thread was about. Any c-card is nothing more than a learner's permit. But an AOW card does open up some "advanced" dives that someone with so little experience has no business doing. Just my $0.02.

Ken
 
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The one that stands out most to me is AOW. I was always amazed that you could be a PADI "Advanced" diver with only 9 dives. Compare that to SSI whose requirements are (used to be?) 5 specialty courses and 25 dives.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

I wouldn't get too hung up on agency certification differences. Many have their own nomenclature with subtle differences. The SSI equivalent to PADI AOW is actually Advanced Adventurer. This has 5 single specialty dives that can apply to specialty certification, extremely similar to PADI. SSI has Stress & Rescue as a specialty, PADI has Rescue Diver as a separate course and level. SSI AOW has no PADI equivalent, it is slightly different from what you describe, 4 specialties and 24 dives. SSI Master Diver is 4 specialties + Stress & Rescue (=5 specialties) and 50 dives. PADI Master Scuba Diver is AOW + 5 specialty + Rescue and 50 dives.

Good divers are a product of many things, good training is one of them. Experience, working toward improvement, comfort and skill in the water, and, probably, also some degree of innate ability, combine to make you the diver you are.
 
The one that stands out most to me is AOW. I was always amazed that you could be a PADI "Advanced" diver with only 9 dives. Compare that to SSI whose requirements are (used to be?) 5 specialty courses and 25 dives.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

Of course the name only means advanced beyond open water, but if your goal is to make fun of the name you're doing fine! :)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 
Glad I'll never have to deal with those AOW cards from PADI or SSI. I actually wouldn't qualify for them :) Luckily with NAUI we don't have the specialty nonsense which is just a way to pad the shops and agencies pockets. Utter bs

So I'm guessing that NAUI instructors/shops don't charge for any of the course listed on the NAUI website... and that NAUI doesn't charge for the materials or to process the card?

naui.JPG


Incidentally, one of the best presentations I saw at DEMA was NAUI's "Scuba Training For Profit" in which David Ochs (NAUI CoB) shared his approach to building dive training as a profit center. Which he seems to do quite well...

Ochs.JPG


I wonder exactly what an "International Diver" is... and how much David charges for the course. And can "Passport Diver" be taught concurrently? And why isn't there a Jr Underwater International Passport Hookah Photographer course?

NB: I'm not knocking David. I'm a fan - and his presentation genuinely was the best that I saw at DEMA - but for NAUI divers to assume that somehow NAUI is "above" profit is simply ridiculous.

---------- Post added January 17th, 2015 at 11:33 AM ----------

No Ray, I certainly don't think of an AOW cert as being an advanced diver. I was only pointing to the significant difference between the PADI and SSI requirements and definitions for the same cert level. For beginner divers, there is a huge difference between having 9 dives and having 25 or more. That's what I thought the thread was about. Any c-card is nothing more than a learner's permit. But an AOW card does open up some "advanced" dives that someone with so little experience has no business doing. Just my $0.02.

Ken

My OW 1, 2, 3, and 4 were in West Palm in February. My AOW was logged dives 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Maui in March. Dive 10 and 11 were a Drysuit course in April. Dives 12 and 13 were to the Mohawk off NJ.

"It's the diver... not the card."
 
oh no no, I'm not saying NAUI is above profit, they're just as bad as the rest of them, they don't REQUIRE x number of specialties to get certified for anything. Don't get me wrong, I think specialties are good, it's important to have formal courses for things like drysuit, Rescue *the one I actually do have*, training assistant, EANx obviously though we just give our basic students the EANx Diver card which counts for both OW and EANx, but the fact that you don't have to get x number of specialties to advance is what I was referring to.

That said, some good specialties that PADI has

Altitude Diver
Cavern
Photography
DPV
Drift
Drysuit
EANx-though IMHO should be included in every OW class since it takes an extra 2 hours of lecture and no extra dives, just do the last two on nitrox....
O2 is toeing the line because DAN's is a bit better and more recognized
Ice
Multi-level-only because it actually teaches how to do it with tables, but still toeing the line because with computers, most PADI divers don't actually know how to use tables

Some complete and utter BS certifications that are literally there for the sole reason of profit
The whole Distinctive Specialty list
Self Reliant-all divers should be self reliant
Surface Marker Buoy Diver-really? seriously?
Public Safety Diver-somehow they trademarked this, but I've worked with a lot of PSD teams and I anyone wanting to join with that specialty would be sent straight to proper training. It's only 4 dives, not cutting it
Free Diver is toeing the line since basic snorkeling skills are taught and that should include minimal free diving....
AWARE, shark conservation, Sea Turtle, Whale Shark, Invasive Lionfish Tracker, Fish ID, coral conservation. All of that stuff can actually be learned on the internet and is completely idiotic.
Boat diver-should be taught in OW
Deep diver-only because it astounds me that "deep diving" is up to 130ft which is taught through most other agencies OW or AOW courses
Equipment Specialist-quite possibly the most BS of them all. Teaching to replace broken o-rings or spring straps, woopty doo
Peak Performance Buoyancy, almost tied for the most BS, this should be taught in OW, if you can't pass this course immediately after OW your instructor failed you as a teacher
Search and Recovery diver-see Public Safety Diver
UW Naturalist, see AWARE. While I disagree with them as specialties for certification, the concept is important and divers should be attending seminars on this stuff if they want to learn about it, but no need for a PADI course to be taught on it, go talk to a college professor or someone who actually works in that field. Or hell, just watch the TED talks series on it, you'll learn more.
Sidemount-only because the instructor aspect of this course is a joke, so most of the ones teaching it aren't actually sidemount divers

NAUI has the same AWARE type specialties, but you almost never see them. Stuff like this is why the industry has gotten really scary. It's all about C card collecting, pumping out as many students as possible, and making a buck. If the agencies were really concerned about the aquatic environment, they would tighten up training standards and make all of the divers coming out look like the guys that take GUE rec1 or those that we turn out after they've had their balls handed to them on a silver platter after a semester of hell in the pool. I've seen divers from both those types of certifications look better in the water than PADI instructors, it's sad but a very true reality. I'm not bashing PADI specifically, SSI, NAUI, they're all guilty.

To the OP, if you want to see the difference you have to look at what their training was like, not the card in their hands. Our students have NAUI EANx cards when they come out. To get that they had to perform back kicking, flat turns, no flutter kicking ever, pick up a 10lb weight belt and don it without touching the bottom or touching the surface in 3ft of water, full MFS ditch and don with max 3 breaths at the surface *usually not seen until leadership courses btw*, their OW courses included dive 2 as reciprocal navigation and dives 3/4 as independent buddy team compass navigation. Take that against a NAUI EANx diver from any dive shop and you just can't compare it, it's not fair. Our guys have had almost 40 hours in the pool by the time they head to open water. It's not fair because at the university level money isn't a factor, so we can fail all of the students and not take them to OW and it doesn't matter, and we have 12 weeks to get them into shape, but the dive shops can't afford to do that. As a whole the certifications are all the same, every agency. There has been a big change in NAUI this year, big changes in NASE in the last two years, and that might see some change in a couple years once the policies get finalized, but I doubt it. In a for profit organization, you just can't afford to turn away divers, and dive shops can't afford to make classes longer because they will go out of business. There are too many shops and too many agencies trying to stay afloat to provide quality training anymore. The only time you really see it is when you get to the technical level where the game changes from surviving an underwater experience, pretty easy in recreational profiles, to this is actively trying to kill you so you can't **** up, i.e. cave, decompression diving etc. The playing fields are level for the most part, recreational training is all pretty flat with very few exceptions for better divers, technical training is all relatively flat with few exceptions that are unfortunately not trained as well.
 
There are many agencies out there.

I am trying to clearly understand the true differences.

So, lets say you have multiple divers. They all have the same level of certification from different agencies. Lets say, they all have their own equipment. Lets also say they have the same number and types of dives.

As a buddy, would I notice a real difference?

Or, is the difference in the instructor who taught them their skills?

Differences between agencies can be seen by looking up the requirements for each agency.

But the true differences is made by the instructor.

The instructor ...... Especially as a new diver. You are not only learning skills but consciously and subconsciously learning/copying the instructors every detail in the water.

It's not uncommon for the instructor to be a member of more than one agency.
 
oh no no, I'm not saying NAUI is above profit, they're just as bad as the rest of them, they don't REQUIRE x number of specialties to get certified for anything. Don't get me wrong, I think specialties are good, it's important to have formal courses for things like drysuit, Rescue *the one I actually do have*, training assistant, EANx obviously though we just give our basic students the EANx Diver card which counts for both OW and EANx, but the fact that you don't have to get x number of specialties to advance is what I was referring to.

That said, some good specialties that PADI has

Altitude Diver
Cavern
Photography
DPV
Drift
Drysuit
EANx-though IMHO should be included in every OW class since it takes an extra 2 hours of lecture and no extra dives, just do the last two on nitrox....
O2 is toeing the line because DAN's is a bit better and more recognized
Ice
Multi-level-only because it actually teaches how to do it with tables, but still toeing the line because with computers, most PADI divers don't actually know how to use tables

Some complete and utter BS certifications that are literally there for the sole reason of profit
The whole Distinctive Specialty list
Self Reliant-all divers should be self reliant
Surface Marker Buoy Diver-really? seriously?
Public Safety Diver-somehow they trademarked this, but I've worked with a lot of PSD teams and I anyone wanting to join with that specialty would be sent straight to proper training. It's only 4 dives, not cutting it
Free Diver is toeing the line since basic snorkeling skills are taught and that should include minimal free diving....
AWARE, shark conservation, Sea Turtle, Whale Shark, Invasive Lionfish Tracker, Fish ID, coral conservation. All of that stuff can actually be learned on the internet and is completely idiotic.
Boat diver-should be taught in OW
Deep diver-only because it astounds me that "deep diving" is up to 130ft which is taught through most other agencies OW or AOW courses
Equipment Specialist-quite possibly the most BS of them all. Teaching to replace broken o-rings or spring straps, woopty doo
Peak Performance Buoyancy, almost tied for the most BS, this should be taught in OW, if you can't pass this course immediately after OW your instructor failed you as a teacher
Search and Recovery diver-see Public Safety Diver
UW Naturalist, see AWARE. While I disagree with them as specialties for certification, the concept is important and divers should be attending seminars on this stuff if they want to learn about it, but no need for a PADI course to be taught on it, go talk to a college professor or someone who actually works in that field. Or hell, just watch the TED talks series on it, you'll learn more.
Sidemount-only because the instructor aspect of this course is a joke, so most of the ones teaching it aren't actually sidemount divers

NAUI has the same AWARE type specialties, but you almost never see them. Stuff like this is why the industry has gotten really scary. It's all about C card collecting, pumping out as many students as possible, and making a buck. If the agencies were really concerned about the aquatic environment, they would tighten up training standards and make all of the divers coming out look like the guys that take GUE rec1 or those that we turn out after they've had their balls handed to them on a silver platter after a semester of hell in the pool. I've seen divers from both those types of certifications look better in the water than PADI instructors, it's sad but a very true reality. I'm not bashing PADI specifically, SSI, NAUI, they're all guilty.

To the OP, if you want to see the difference you have to look at what their training was like, not the card in their hands. Our students have NAUI EANx cards when they come out. To get that they had to perform back kicking, flat turns, no flutter kicking ever, pick up a 10lb weight belt and don it without touching the bottom or touching the surface in 3ft of water, full MFS ditch and don with max 3 breaths at the surface *usually not seen until leadership courses btw*, their OW courses included dive 2 as reciprocal navigation and dives 3/4 as independent buddy team compass navigation. Take that against a NAUI EANx diver from any dive shop and you just can't compare it, it's not fair. Our guys have had almost 40 hours in the pool by the time they head to open water. It's not fair because at the university level money isn't a factor, so we can fail all of the students and not take them to OW and it doesn't matter, and we have 12 weeks to get them into shape, but the dive shops can't afford to do that. As a whole the certifications are all the same, every agency. There has been a big change in NAUI this year, big changes in NASE in the last two years, and that might see some change in a couple years once the policies get finalized, but I doubt it. In a for profit organization, you just can't afford to turn away divers, and dive shops can't afford to make classes longer because they will go out of business. There are too many shops and too many agencies trying to stay afloat to provide quality training anymore. The only time you really see it is when you get to the technical level where the game changes from surviving an underwater experience, pretty easy in recreational profiles, to this is actively trying to kill you so you can't **** up, i.e. cave, decompression diving etc. The playing fields are level for the most part, recreational training is all pretty flat with very few exceptions for better divers, technical training is all relatively flat with few exceptions that are unfortunately not trained as well.

My agency is better than yours, back peddle, back peddle, BS, BS....
 
has nothing to do with the agency, that's the point. The one thing I like about NAUI is it is less restrictive for the teaching environment which is why we can go so much farther than you can in a formal PADI course, but if you changed our certification to NASE , SSI, whoever, the students would still look the same. It's all about the instructor, but the instructors qualifications are radically different. I'm doing a NASE crossover shortly and won't be doing anything with NAUI formally any more until they get their heads out of their butts and stop trying to be something they aren't.
 
A lot of people are saying it's the instructor.

What happens if there is an amazing instructor for one of the "lesser" agencies, such as PADI, and you only have an average instructor in something like SSI?

Is instruction really the difference?
 
That said, some good specialties that PADI has

Altitude Diver
Cavern
Photography
DPV
Drift
Drysuit
EANx-though IMHO should be included in every OW class since it takes an extra 2 hours of lecture and no extra dives, just do the last two on nitrox....
O2 is toeing the line because DAN's is a bit better and more recognized
Ice
Multi-level-only because it actually teaches how to do it with tables, but still toeing the line because with computers, most PADI divers don't actually know how to use tables

Some complete and utter BS certifications that are literally there for the sole reason of profit
The whole Distinctive Specialty list
Self Reliant-all divers should be self reliant
Surface Marker Buoy Diver-really? seriously?
Public Safety Diver-somehow they trademarked this, but I've worked with a lot of PSD teams and I anyone wanting to join with that specialty would be sent straight to proper training. It's only 4 dives, not cutting it
Free Diver is toeing the line since basic snorkeling skills are taught and that should include minimal free diving....
AWARE, shark conservation, Sea Turtle, Whale Shark, Invasive Lionfish Tracker, Fish ID, coral conservation. All of that stuff can actually be learned on the internet and is completely idiotic.
Boat diver-should be taught in OW
Deep diver-only because it astounds me that "deep diving" is up to 130ft which is taught through most other agencies OW or AOW courses
Equipment Specialist-quite possibly the most BS of them all. Teaching to replace broken o-rings or spring straps, woopty doo
Peak Performance Buoyancy, almost tied for the most BS, this should be taught in OW, if you can't pass this course immediately after OW your instructor failed you as a teacher
Search and Recovery diver-see Public Safety Diver
UW Naturalist, see AWARE. While I disagree with them as specialties for certification, the concept is important and divers should be attending seminars on this stuff if they want to learn about it, but no need for a PADI course to be taught on it, go talk to a college professor or someone who actually works in that field. Or hell, just watch the TED talks series on it, you'll learn more.
Sidemount-only because the instructor aspect of this course is a joke, so most of the ones teaching it aren't actually sidemount divers

Wow, you've said a whole lot I agree with, and slightly more that I disagree with.
And you clearly dislike that people learn anything about the environment within which they are diving. Go talk to a college professor? Why should he/she give his time away because you don't like Project AWARE?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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