what is your LDC and why (phoenix az)

[scubajcf]

We've been doing that informally on Thursday nights out at the lake. We don't usually do it through the winter as participation drops to nil. However, a lot of the instructors and divemasters head out to the lake regularly. Anyone interested, just needs to call the shop or post on the board (http://bbs.scubaspecialties.com) and the person going out tries to contact them. The shop doesn't really organize it, the instructors and DMs do.

To be honest, it is not super structured, as that has never worked as well as the 'just pulling it together' method.

As for trips. That is tough for most shops as that is their bread and butter. But, if someone were to put together an "outlaw" trip, my vote would be for San Diego (Wreck Alley).


jcf


////

 

[KazInAz]

At the risk of looking stupid....whats an 'outlaw' trip?

I'd vote for Wreck Alley and I"m waiting on the B-29

 

[shark.byte.usa]

So, Garrett, where do you want to go? We'll look into organizing it.

Within driving distance:

• San Diego - Wreck Alley [Yukon, Ruby E, NOCS Tower]
• San Carlos, someday but it doesn't excite me all that much
• Casino PT - Catalina *

And if you want to know what I really think...

Social aspects aside, any "Club", LDS sponsored or not, informal gathering, etc have thier social benefits and they are all relatively equal in that regard. So forget the social signifigance for a moment.

I believe a club should be seperated from ALL commercial ventures, shops especially, or some of the true non-social benefits of a club cannot be realized and/or it will limit the pool of interest because of allegiances whether that perception is valid or not. It just the way the scuba world works, like so many other things in life. I believe based on my poking around, the clubs with the best benefits for being a member are shop-autonomous.

Personally I'd pay a few bucks annually to support a shop & agency-autonomous, non-profit Club which:

• Had monthly BBQs & lake dives (scheduled a year in advance)
• Had monthly meetings & socials, for those who like the Happy Hour thing
• Had quarterly trips (passing the group savings onto the club)
• Spared me the commercial nonsense
• Was relatively well organized

I don't know of any club in the valley that fits the bill and I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of.

As a matter of fact if anyone would like to explore this idea further PM me and we can start a new thread and discuss it and not Hijack Thomas' thread.


-Garrett

 

[diversteve]

Personally I'd pay a few bucks annually to support a shop & agency-autonomous, non-profit Club which:

Had monthly BBQs & lake dives (scheduled a year in advance)
*Had monthly meetings & socials, for those who like the Happy Hour thing
Had quarterly trips (passing the group savings onto the club)
*Spared me the commercial nonsense
*Was relatively well organized

There is one, it's called AZScuba. We're LDS/Agency agnostic by choice. And definitely non-profit, our annual operating budget is non-existent.

We do 2 of the 5, well maybe 3...depends on how you define relatively. I think we're the biggest LDS independent group in town now, there are 128 current(April and newer) members in AZScuba. Possibly even the largest dive group in town including the LDS clubs.

Quarterly discounted trips is hard to do. Usually the most you can get is that the organizer gets comp'ed if they sign up 10-12 or more, which he/she can then pass on to the others at his/her expense. Otherwise someone, typically your LDS, has to come up with the deposit at least to guarantee the trip, boat etc.

But we have done two "outlaw" trips in the past year to the BVI's and San Carlos. Not to begrudge the LDS's their profit, but ours were less expensive.(one was partially subsidized) But we don't have any sort of DM/Travel Guide/handholding either.

Once there's a formalized club structure, i.e. dues etc. there's liability issues. Collecting "a few bucks" per year wouldn't cover the insurance aspect of it. Maybe a few bucks per month - if we had 500 members. I don't know what blanket liability for a non-regulated sport costs but I'm guessing it's not inexpensive.

Speaking for myself - not David - I don't want to get into that, one of the reasons I'm active in AZScuba is that the club isn't formalized.

btw, I don't think your suggestion is a hijack since this thread is about Local Dive Clubs - why I posted here.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Garrett, I agree with Steve. What you want would be difficult to organize in this part of the country. I've seen clubs with a lot of the attributes you list back east, but there's also a lot more interest in regular diving back east. Not that we don't have that here, but we just don't have it to the extent they do there. Part of the reason is we don't have the sites to dive that they have. So with the membership they have, they can afford to cover the legality part of it.

Regarding your list,

We do monthly lake dives (currently scheduled about 6 months in advance (on the new site that will hopefully be up soon!)

AZScuba does the monthly meetings/socials

We're working on quarterly trips. Right now we're planning on 2 San Carlos trips and 1 San Diego trip for 2007. I'll let you know when the details are worked out.

Commercialization - well, we may be teaching on some of our trips, but we don't try to sell our courses to anyone. Anyone who wants to learn is welcome to ask us about it.

Organization - hmmmm, we're trying, but we also don't want to publish an itinerary that needs to be held to. We're laid back. Basically, we can gather the information and put it out there. We'll even make the arrangements. Is that organized enough?

It's a thin line between club and business because we teach, but I know there are other clubs that have that aspect to them as well. I'd even be open to having other independents out on the weekends and the quarterly trips teaching as well.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Steve by your own admission as I said "It doesn't fit the bill"

Sorry to be so pesimistic Steve but I've seen little to no promotion of local diving by AZScuba.

...there are 128 current(April and newer) members in AZScuba. Possibly even the largest dive group in town including the LDS clubs.

I'm not real sure how you define "members" simply by joining the Forum or the Yahoo Group? I've been a subscriber of both, but have never attended a Happy Hour and changed my subscription options to the list when it was active, because it was non-diving chit-chat between a few posters. I wouldn't therefore consider myself a "member" would you?

Quarterly discounted trips is hard to do. Usually the most you can get is that the organizer gets comp'ed if they sign up 10-12 or more, which he/she can then pass on to the others at his/her expense. Otherwise someone, typically your LDS, has to come up with the deposit at least to guarantee the trip, boat etc.

While it may be difficult to run to BVI every three months. Shorter trips to say Mead, Mohave, San Diego, Channel Islands, San Carlos are certainly possible. Discounts are certainly there for the asking, Socal SB does a boat every month, discount dependant on # of divers, no deposit. Subract the $ for a LDS DM's/Instructors/Hand-holders and it's already at a discount, group rate if negotiated, is a bonus.

But we have done two "outlaw" trips in the past year to the BVI's and San Carlos. Not to begrudge the LDS's their profit, but ours were less expensive.

Who's WE, I never saw anything in your forum or the mailing list, was this available to your 128 members? I have no problem begrudging LDS's their trip profit, it's kindof of a perk of a club.

Once there's a formalized club structure, i.e. dues etc. there's liability issues. Collecting "a few bucks" per year wouldn't cover the insurance aspect of it. Maybe a few bucks per month - if we had 500 members. I don't know what blanket liability for a non-regulated sport costs but I'm guessing it's not inexpensive.

While I don't know AZ law, seems alot of Clubs are getting by just fine without it using a Liability Release Form. It take some looking into. I also said I'd be willing to pay a few bucks, not that it's necessary.

http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=scuba+club+liability

Rob, we'll have to agree to disagree. On the coasts I'm sure it is easier to have a club do to the factors you mentioned. Do I think it can't work here, absolutely not! As long as 1 diver show's to each function, the word will spread that someone will be there.

You come to lake, in most cases to teach, and invite people to stop by, not exactly the same thing. That will never be IMHO successful as I said previously due to allegiances to shop, instructor whatever.

NO COMMERCIALIZATION, SHOP & AGENCY AUTONOMOUS!! You don't have that, it's not a fine line, it's BLACK AND WHITE IMO. AZScuba has that but little else to offer that I've seen.

I respect what you guys have to say, you know that, I just disagree.

-Garrett

 

[Dive-aholic]

Rob, we'll have to agree to disagree. On the coasts I'm sure it is easier to have a club do to the factors you mentioned. Do I think it can't work here, absolutely not! As long as 1 diver show's to each function, the word will spread that someone will be there.

You come to lake, in most cases to teach, and invite people to stop by, not exactly the same thing. That will never be IMHO successful as I said previously due to allegiances to shop, instructor whatever.

NO COMMERCIALIZATION, SHOP & AGENCY AUTONOMOUS!! You don't have that, it's not a fine line, it's BLACK AND WHITE IMO. AZScuba has that but little else to offer that I've seen.

I respect what you guys have to say, you know that, I just disagree.

-Garrett

I don't really think we're disagreeing. I never said we're a club. I just pointed out some of the things we do that meet what you'd like. You've pointed out pretty much all I've said. I don't think we fit exactly what you would like, but it's kind of close. And most of the trips we plan on organizing in '07 won't be teaching focused. The only trip we're definitely planning on teaching on is the Wreck Alley trip - Wreck Diving course. We've already done a Mohave/Mead trip and are doing another one soon. No teaching planned (we don't have the permits to teach there). We also went to San Carlos last month on a test trip to see how we can organize things for future trips. Like I said, we have no intention of making any money off of these trips. We just want to go down and dive, and it's more fun with a good group of divers that has specific sites they want to dive. During our October trip, there were 4 of us. The 2nd day we wanted to hit a couple of specific sites, but the boat had an additional person sign up for a snorkel, so the site had to be changed to accomodate the snorkeler. If we can organize a trip just for ourselves, that wouldn't happen. That's our intention with those trips. I've thought of forming a club like you describe, but because of Southwest Scuba, I didn't see any point.

Why don't you start a club? I'd be happy to handle the San Carlos and Mohave/Mead trips. You can handle the SoCal trips. And we can branch out from there.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Why don't you start a club? I'd be happy to handle the San Carlos and Mohave/Mead trips. You can handle the SoCal trips. And we can branch out from there.

I'd consider it (with help) if the interest was there. BUT first I think it would be prudent to see if Dave & Steve would want to expand (& organize) AZScuba. As he said they already do 2 to 3 things I mentioned. We could handle the monthly lake dives and semi-local trips, Steve doesn't like those anyway, they could continue with their happy-hour/socials, which I don't like, and the occassional tropical trips. It's worth discussing IMO before gauging interest in a brand new dive club.

-Garrett

 

[diversteve]

Sorry to be so pesimistic Steve but I've seen little to no promotion of local diving by AZScuba.

I'm not sure that that's an expectation that AZScuba should have to meet. Without speaking for David, I think we fill our charter pretty well, it's a club that meets regularly and dives when we can. At least I'm happy with what happens. If your expectation of AZScuba is different and you feel that we should be promoting local diving then feel free to participate in that aspect of our club and promote local diving. We would welcome it.

I'm not real sure how you define "members" simply by joining the Forum

That's it. The forum is for people who've requested membership in AZScuba for whatever reason. You requested membership into AZScuba through the forum here, ergo you're now a member.

I wouldn't therefore consider myself a "member" would you?

You are, what do you consider yourself?

btw, we just registered azscuba.org. No content there yet except a link back here but we'll be adding some things in the near future.

While it may be difficult to run to BVI every three months.

For some, I've managed to do some tropical diving every three months this year.

Shorter trips to say Mead, Mohave, San Diego, Channel Islands, San Carlos are certainly possible. Discounts are certainly there for the asking

I can't dispute that, I've never looked into it. Why doesn't anybody ever mention Powell? Is there something I'm missing? I thought it was clear and deep in places - at least where I've been it was.

Socal SB does a boat every month, discount dependant on # of divers, no deposit.

I don't think we could realistically fill a boat a month or even a boat a quarter, the logistics are very different when you have the ocean within walking distance. And what's the diver base in the L.A. area alone? 5000? 10,000? Not counting San Diego or Northern CA. I don't think the active dive community in all of Arizona is more than a thousand - emphasis on "active"

Who's WE, I never saw anything in your forum or the mailing list, was this available to your 128 members?

"We" were the people who attended the five monthly meetings prior to the BVI trip and committed to go. "We" for San Carlos were the people who attended a meeting in September and decided it would be cool to see the Hammerheads run mid-October and set up our own trip in a flurry of e-mails. Had you been to any of them you would have been included. Personally I consider the active members of the club to be those that I occasionally see. But that's just me. I know it's your preference not to attend HH meetings so you missed both opportunities.

Should we have posted it on the forum? Maybe, I don't know. Our intention was to keep the group small for logistics and cost reasons. Since both trips were filled by those in attendence, I didn't see a need to post it anywhere else. I guess we could start posting a monthly meeting summary but then it will seem like a boring old club meeting and I'll probably stop going...

As you mentioned for the same reason that you don't go to the HH meetings, I probably won't go to Pleasant to dive, it holds no interest for me and I'm a wwwuss. Although I would attend a bbq after a dive event. Maybe we should plan one for the spring to give everyone time to schedule around it.

While I don't know AZ law, seems alot of Clubs are getting by just fine without it using a Liability Release Form. It take some looking into.

I can't dispute that point, I've never checked into it either. My comments were based on this litigious society that we find ourselves in.

I'm a little confused by the you/your vs. we aspect of your last post. I'd hope that you consider yourself to be a member in AZScuba to the extent that you wish to be.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I'd consider it (with help) if the interest was there. BUT first I think it would be prudent to see if Dave & Steve would want to expand (& organize) AZScuba. As he said they already do 2 to 3 things I mentioned. We could handle the monthly lake dives and semi-local trips, Steve doesn't like those anyway, they could continue with their happy-hour/socials, which I don't like, and the occassional tropical trips. It's worth discussing IMO before gauging interest in a brand new dive club.

-Garrett

Sounds like a great idea! Maybe Dave and Steve would be willing to allot different "divisions" in the club? Kind of a something for everyone. There's obviously a variety of interests among the divers here. Out of 128 members, maybe a dozen or so attend HHs. Maybe we could get some more interest by offering other types of club sanctioned meetings, like monthly dives and bbq's. What do you think, Steve? These are all just suggestions. If you and Dave like the club the way it is, that's fine. I think what Garrett would like (and so would I) is an alternative. I'm also not into the HHs. I'd rather be socializing next to the water during a surface interval. My preference is not to dive Pleasant, but if I didn't, then I wouldn't dive as much as I do. I can't afford to go somewhere else every couple of weeks.

Steve, to answer your question about Powell, we haven't been there for a couple of reasons:

1. It's a lot farther than other sites like Pleasant and Mohave.
2. The water level is about 150' down now. I haven't heard what conditions are like, but I don't think their as good as they used to be.