What wasn't covered well enough...

[Lead_carrier]

Going through the pool sessions with my son, I really do empathize with instructors. They have only X amount of time to cover Y amount of skills. With kids and slow adults (like myself), that time is not adequate.

Doesn't matter which organization it is, SSI or PADI, if you restrict the time to what is allotted - you can't expect all the skills to be taught - OW or OW plus AOW.

I think folks are realistically going to have to pay for more instruction time.

Wrong, I have all the time in the world. I am the one that determines if I'm comfortable enough with your skills to sign you off. No one, including the head honchos of any agency, can force me to sign your folder.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wrong, I have all the time in the world. I am the one that determines if I'm comfortable enough with your skills to sign you off. No one, including the head honchos of any agency, can force me to sign your folder.

Although that is technically correct, if you work for an LDS they do have a certain say in how much time you are allotted with your students. The LDS owner typically sets that policy.

For example ... one shop owner I previously worked for told me they were willing to pay for four hours of pool time for OW classes. Anything over that came out of my pocket. I don't instruct with the idea of making a living at it ... but it shouldn't cost me more than I earn. That's why I don't teach for shops anymore.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[waynel]

That's true. Luckily, the vast majority of professions are unlikely to kill or maim you while you are figuring stuff out.

I don't want to open the can of worms that's more than completely covered in loosebits' thread linked to in my signature, but better buoyancy control CAN be taught in OW, and some instructors here do it. Gas management CAN be taught, beginning in OW and continuing in AOW, and some instructors here do it. Buddy skills CAN be taught beginning in OW. We have instructors here in the Puget Sound area who can and DO teach these things. Snowbear posted pictures of OW students from one of her local instructors, and those students were showing good buoyancy and trim.

It CAN be done. It just mostly isn't.

I agree. I got everything you talk about here in my OW by NAUI. And you know what, I bet more instructors are teaching the essentials than we realize. I went back asked the 8 other people who were in that OW class with me last June about what was taught. Half of them swear a certain skill wasn't taught until we actually discussed it. Question: Do you think it's possible that some folks who complain about not getting instruction in a certain area might not recall because while it may have been brief, it was covered? Hey, it's human nature. How many times do we insist something did or did not happen until someone takes us back through it mentally and we go "Oh, yeah...I remember now!" Just food for thought as we continue to chop the legs off all these instructors or LDS without hearing their side (and we seldom do on this board).

Anyone who is or has been a teacher of any sort (as I have been) can relate to what I'm saying. My wife has been teaching 21 years and I see this all the time: "you didn't cover this" until she has to "take them back through it" and then "Oh, yeah... So please take "complaints about instructors" with a grain of salt. I'd bet overall, as a whole, they are doing a more than adequate job.

 

[TSandM]

I think you have a good point, waynel, and I do know that sometimes we see an individual complain bitterly about being disappointed in a diving class when it becomes pretty clear that the class was not the problem.

But across the board, there are a LOT of complaints, from students AND instructors, about what's not taught to divers, and I think the mass of the complaints makes it highly unlikely that it is due to individual forgetfulness. And I was present when two instructors told my husband that gas management is not taught ANYWHERE in their educational sequence.

 

[waynel]

Oh absolutely, there are bad schools and instructors. I feel I had outstanding instruction in OW. However, when I finished my first thought was "OK, what do I need to know that they might not have covered, or covered well enough. I went back through the OW manual, amazed myself at what I missed (either the instructor's fault or my own) and joined SB where there are experienced divers (such as you) who I could learn from. As you said, SCUBA can kill you and I'm not going to rely soley on what I was taught or not taught. Doesn't do me much good to complain about PADI from the grave. Hell of a way to win an argument.

I agree, yes there are bad schools and yes they are a danger, both in the public education system and SCUBA education. We know what we want done, but what's the reality? Utimately, we are all responsible for what we know and don't know. Your education doesn't belong to any school, certifying agency, etc. It belongs to you and you are ulitmately responsible for it. Believe me if the federal and state governments can't fix public education, there's little chance of fixing SCUBA education to everyone's satisfaction. We are in the greatest Information Age in the history of humankind. Find out what you need and go get it. In this case, your life depends upon it.

 

[J.R.]

Oh absolutely, there are bad schools and instructors. I feel I had outstanding instruction in OW. However, when I finished my first thought was "OK, what do I need to know that they might not have covered, or covered well enough. I went back through the OW manual, amazed myself at what I missed (either the instructor's fault or my own) and joined SB where there are experienced divers (such as you) who I could learn from. As you said, SCUBA can kill you and I'm not going to rely soley on what I was taught or not taught. Doesn't do me much good to complain about PADI from the grave. Hell of a way to win an argument.

I agree, yes there are bad schools and yes they are a danger, both in the public education system and SCUBA education. We know what we want done, but what's the reality? Utimately, we are all responsible for what we know and don't know. Your education doesn't belong to any school, certifying agency, etc. It belongs to you and you are ulitmately responsible for it. Believe me if the federal and state governments can't fix public education, there's little chance of fixing SCUBA education to everyone's satisfaction. We are in the greatest Information Age in the history of humankind. Find out what you need and go get it. In this case, your life depends upon it.

:wave-smil

Wow... IMO an absolutely great post.

My only question is "how do you know that you don't know something"??? Purusing SB I've found a lot of things (some 'big things', some 'small things') that have tweeked up my awarness level on several issues... but even here... if you don't KNOW the poster... how do you separate the wheat from the chalf?

 

[waynel]

J.R. - Confirm and verify. I get a lot of tips on SB and I discuss them with professional divers, DM's, and generally divers who have those 1,000 plus dives. There's no substitute for experience. On every dive trip, before I leave the boat, I make it a point to try and learn one new thing about diving, or verify the information I've gathered. One of the dangers of the internet is that we read something and believe it's true. Take your new info to someone who has more experience. In fact, I am now arranging for a dive trip to the Gulf rigs with another diver here in Louisiana who has vast experience diving rigs. I've never done a rig dive and wouldn't presume to know the special things to watch out for. I could simply ask on the SB tech site, but as you said about posters...

We will be meeting soon to plan the dive and go over the nuances to rig diving weeks before we even do the dive. I will take his information and talk to some tech divers who I do business with. Not that I don't trust my new friend whom I have yet to meet in person, it's just that it never hurts to cross reference. It can do more that hurt you if you don't. I love diving, but the day it doesn't frighten me just enough to keep honing my skills is the day I will quit. Love is a wonderful thing, it's just not wonderful enough to kill yourself over.

 

[diverdowndh]

As a diver that has been diving for a while (although nothing near some of the people on this board) AND just finishing the AOW I posted my thoughts in a thread this morning. Please take a look at:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=190548

I was pleased by the course, in general. It is actually titled Advanced OPEN WATER, which is just an extension of the initial cert. I knew it would just really be a class that allows those of us who dive for fun, but also take the science of it seriously to further your skills by just getting in the water a few more dives. Having a controlled environment with an instructor on hand is just a good idea.
I DO agree that some of the original points would have made it much more interesting for me. The "advanced" part of the title does imply more than just doing a small square with a compass. You do get to choose a couple of topics, having an "understanding and using computers" is an excellent idea, as is "dive planning", "gas management", and a module that simply teaches how to stay off the dang bottom or work your hoses, etc. into a more streamlined profile. Going thru the hoops on the peak buoyancy dive did this somewhat but having a student go over and around obstacles without touching would be a great addition and not too far out of the current curriculum. I do have to say I was sorely disappointed in the underwater photography portion - I have been taking digital uwater pics for years and learned absolutely nothing from that part.

 

[DiverLS]

I did my AOW a LONG time ago but here goes:
Underwater Navigation
Night Dive
Deep dive
Kick cycles
Underwater recovery (lift bags)

This was before dive computers were widely used so no mention of them. I won't dive without one now.

 

[bfw]

Absolutely nothing. 1 year later, sat for the Divemaster exam cold, no prep, got 94% based only on having paid attention and retained what I learned in the OW class. 14 years later, sat for Nitrox exam, got 95%, using only knowledge retained from OW class, and asking in advance what PPO limit the agency preferred. By the way, the OW class was just about the most fun I've had while not naked.