What wasn't covered well enough...

[bfw]

Wrong, I have all the time in the world. I am the one that determines if I'm comfortable enough with your skills to sign you off. No one, including the head honchos of any agency, can force me to sign your folder.

Clearly you're not PADI then. The standards require you to issue the cert if the student meets the letter of the standards. You're not allowed to add anything, including satisfaction of your subjective opinion, and I know instructors who've had sustained QA problems over this.

 

[Twiddles]

Interesting responses, I am curious as to why gas management is listed as such an issue? IMO this is one issue that would seem to be a practice issue more than the others? I mean if I understand what people are saying your really just concerned with how lack of management affects length of dive right? Or is this really about OOA concerns?

Reason for my original question is twofold, one because I was curious if my issues were shared by other newer divers and two because I wanted to see if there was a disparity between what seasoned divers percieved as issues and what newer divers percieved as issues. Surprisingly, at least to me, seems to be that the instructor/seasoned divers have a fairly good grasp of issues as they affect the newer divers, yet the training is the same or less than what it was when the instuctors/seasoned divers were trained? Is it all really about how lax the agencies and instructors have become or is it more along the lines of it used to be much harder than it really needed to be? If its the latter, do you instructors expect the training to eventually cover the identified issues?

 

[TSandM]

Twiddles, regarding your first paragraph's questions, PM NWGratefulDiver for his gas management handout, and it will answer all your questions. There is more to gas management than what your bottom time is.

 

[Bubble Junky]

Me
1) Bouyancy
2) OOA situations
3) Limited Visibility Diving (Night or otherwise)
4) Propulsion methods (Different Kicks)
5) Ascent Rate


My Wife
1) Bouyancy
2) OOA situations
3) Ascent Rates
4) Computer Reading and Understanding
5) Night Diving (Limited Visibility)

You should have learnt more about OOA situations on the 'Deep' dive. The others depend on the electives you chose. Buoyancy, propulsion methods and ascent rate are covered on 'Peak Performance Buoyancy' and limited vis on the night dive. Computer reading is covered on the 'Multi-level and Computer' elective, as is ascent rates.
But maybe this is just the way I teach as a PADI instructor.

 

[Twiddles]

TsandM I got the handout and have read it many times carefully because of another thread on this board, thanks again it is very informative. I definately see what you mean in terms of gas management being more than just bottom time. I sorta lumped that into OOA scenarios but its definately a seperate issue.

For clarity Bubble I am not referring to any particular agency here or specific class available or even instructor type. I am wondering though, if so many people both new and old divers see so clearly less than 8 different issues of great importance to the safety and quality of diving why those issues are still not considered important enough to merit more initial instruction? The arguement of too much information over too little time definately increases in substance as classes continue to get shorter and requirements continue to drop. I guess the question would then become, if the issues are so well known, so obvious to new and old diver alike, why are they being ignored? I dont mean to say they arent taught, I am saying it seems that most agree they aren't covered well enough to be effective. Why are classes being shortened, while at the same time DAN, SAFE, DIR, ALIVE and other groups are screaming safety?

Seems like somebodies not listening.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

TsandM I got the handout and have read it many times carefully because of another thread on this board, thanks again it is very informative. I definately see what you mean in terms of gas management being more than just bottom time. I sorta lumped that into OOA scenarios but its definately a seperate issue.

For clarity Bubble I am not referring to any particular agency here or specific class available or even instructor type. I am wondering though, if so many people both new and old divers see so clearly less than 8 different issues of great importance to the safety and quality of diving why those issues are still not considered important enough to merit more initial instruction? The arguement of too much information over too little time definately increases in substance as classes continue to get shorter and requirements continue to drop. I guess the question would then become, if the issues are so well known, so obvious to new and old diver alike, why are they being ignored? I dont mean to say they arent taught, I am saying it seems that most agree they aren't covered well enough to be effective. Why are classes being shortened, while at the same time DAN, SAFE, DIR, ALIVE and other groups are screaming safety?

Seems like somebodies not listening.

I think the short answer to your question is simple ... consumer demand.

PADI propelled itself into market dominance by offering quick, inexpensive, easy classes. The rest of the agencies followed suit because it was either that or go out of business.

Having worked at a few different dive shops I've been able to watch the difference in class sizes between those that offer lengthier, more comprehensive (and more expensive) classes and those that offer the bare minimum. The former typically gets about one third or less the students as the latter. Having talked to many prospective students about the classes, and why ours take two or three weeks rather than the week-end classes offered at another shop, they don't see the differences in terms of quality of information offered ... they look at it in terms of the amount of time and money they have to invest in getting the C-card.

People don't understand until much later the importance of what they're passing up ... and typically will choose the path of least resistance toward their goal ... which is getting certified. Quality issues don't enter the equation until they start diving.

Ultimately, it's the consumer who decides what's an acceptable level of quality, and how much they're willing to pay for it. There's good and bad sides to that system, but it's ultimately what's driven certification standards lower and lower ... as agencies race toward the bottom in an effort to capture greater market share ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mwhities]

I'm going to have to come see Bob.

Michael

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm going to have to come see Bob.

Michael

That would be cool ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mwhities]

I'll pay for the class if you pay for the plane ticket (EDIT: ohh the hotel too. ).

Michael

 

[waynel]

Thank you Bob. I pointed out earlier on this thread about SCUBA being a business, but it needed to be said by someone with far more experience than me. Getting the C-card is the new student's motiviation and whoever steps up to give them that, gets the business. That is why I stress that your diving education is your responsibility and there is no shortage of sites like SB, books, other divers, etc. where you can get that knowledge. The U.S. spends billions of dollars each year, and millions of people scream about what's wrong with public education...yet we still can't fix it. We will never fix what's (perceived or in reality) wrong with SCUBA education. As you implicitly suggested, get your C-card and then continue your education on your own.