What went wrong here....anything?

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............why would anyone attempt to lead a float dive with 17 divers? I'm pretty good, but I can't keep track of that many divers in ideal conditions. You never plan for ideal conditions. This should have been broken down into a minimum of 3 groups each with their own line and float. I agree with Rick, the dive should have been aborted early. There are some important lessons to be learned, but it doesn't sound like there's anything to "notify an agency" about. BTW, the "dive supervisor" was actually a safety diver.

WWW™
 
While I have read a great many of your post and have have agreed with your opinions, for the most part, I must disagree with you on this one. This is why.

I have a friend who is doing time for DWI. He said that he learned his lesson. He changed his lifestyle completely. He took certain steps to insure that it didn't happen again. He is, however, in prison. Please don't misunderstand me, I feel that the proper things are happening. My point is that he was able to answer yes to your three questions, so are you saying that he should not have been punished? I don't want to believe that you are, but it sounds, to me, like you are saying that no matter how wrong some one is, If they learn their lesson then they should not be punished
 
This thread gives me the chills... My first thought was how could one dive master lead a group of 17 on ANY dive and manage to keep control of them all, not to mention the conditions of this dive. I've just come back from diving with 4 divers and TWO DMs and while we didn't have major problems there were two minor incidents among this tiny group.

I'm OW with 10 dives - the thought of doing a dive like this right now scares the sh1t out of me because I know I'm not experienced enough to deal with drifts and big drops. Brrrrrrr..... Envisioning bottoming out at 200' or the frothing at the mouth, heart attack victim is terrifying.

From my very limited experience, it seems that the DM was negligent and should be reported - if only to record what a screw up that dive was and make people more alert in the future..... in my humble opinion....
 
I'm just wondering at what point the divers themselves are culpable to some degree? I mean put yourself in that spot.

I can't say for sure that if I had spent my money I would have stayed on board, but I do know I would have thought long and hard about it. From the sound of it, some of those divers were diving beyond their experience and ability, and being certified they should have known better. I feel it's wrong to point only to the DM or the dive operation.

I DO think the DM should have said NO to such a large group though. But you never know what kind of pressure he might have been under to just take them down...

If the dive profile and associated risks been clearly explained, maybe a few divers might have sat it out.

I just don't think we should hold the DM as a babysitter for the group. But then, I'm not a DM so what the heck do I know? It will be interesting to hear Beachman's follow up.
 
Maybe the DM felt that with 1 instructor and 4 other DMs in the group that they could/would assist, if need be. While they technically weren't under any obligation to do so, especially if it wasn't requested of them before hand, but I'd bet that legally they could be also held accountable. And I've seen groups of 12 or more divers before being lead by one DM, and I'd say it's a rather common practice. Heck, alot operations don't provide DMs at all unless you pay extra for one, then they are there only for you. And those same operations drop large groups on sites all the time.

Even with several more DMs in the water, who's to say this could have been avoided after it was already set in motion? Take the incident with the Diverlink group in Coz last year for instance. That group was mostly comprised of well qualified divers and still several of them went to the chamber.

Personally, I think divers and the dive industry should get away from the hen/chicks thing. Ever single diver that enters the water should be capable of doing that dive and handling the conditions it may present, or they shouldn't get in the water, period. Relying on someone else to bail you out when trouble arises is just asking for it. Training dives, as it sounds like this was for some of them, should be done with an instructor, not a DM. And sometimes things happen that we just can't control, always have and always will. I think this is one of those cases. But I also think this operation needs to re-think their dives. But I'm not convinced this situation could have been avoided even if they had.

That being said, I do think that DMs/ops/instructors should be responsible for the KNOWN situations that they put divers into. For example, they shouldn't allow a new diver to make dives that they know are beyond their capabilities from their boat. And they should tell it like is when briefing a site. But each diver in the end is responsible for making up his own mind.
 
I don't really want to get involved but...

As a DM, I wouldn't want to take a group this big anywhere. 17 is just TOO large. Also, I wouldn't want to take people in on a dive I hadn't done at least once before, and had a good feel for.

Now, If the DM had done the dive before, why didn't she expect the downcurrent?? if she knew about the downcurrent then it was plain neglegence to not tell people about it, and to ensure that people understood what to do.

If the DM didn't know because she hadn't done the dive, only had the general boat guidelines to go on for that dive - then the dive operation in general is at fault besause they didn't provide her with the information, and you with some-one who knew the site adequately.

If it was a set of conditions that was different from normal, then surely a dive boat with plenty of knowledge should have thought that drift + wall + dropoff was a receipe for disaster.

This looks like a case of sloppy practice that very nearly ended in tragedy. As a DM I've learned the hard way, that when I'm not happy with something - even if I am being paid or I am paying - that I have to speak up (even if the instructor etc.. doesn't agree with me) - why didn't one of the other 4DM's or the instructor politely ask a few extra questions?

Equally - how many of the divers (eg the open water + a few) had done a propper drift dive before? If they hadn't done one, was this the time to do their first?

Jon T
 
I agree with what Warhammer stated in that when you enter the water you should not rely on the DM, you should rely on YOUR skills and YOUR buddies.

But in this case (exception to the rule) is where your solo skills come in to play. I am not advocating solo diving, but having the skills are good to have. Beachman avoided a possible accident to himself by having them.

Again, 17 divers to one DM, sounds like trying to heard cattle to me. But the instructor and the DM certs are at as much of fault as the DM and the Boat captain.
Once you enter the "professional" end of diving there is an "implied responsibility" to make sure all is well and everybody is safe. Ask any doctor. Doesn't make any difference if they were there on vacation or not. They have a responsibility to the diving community.

This is something all new divers need to think about when taking the step toward "Divemaster and Instructor.

Sounds like we can point the finger at lots of people here. Just glad Beachman is a good diver with good skills and he survived a really bad situation.

Like Warhammer said this kinda thing happens all the time, you need to know that when you roll off into the water. Expect the worst, accept the best.

Just my .02.

ID
 
I posted a story much like this one. It is in " Another San Diego Tragedy" On Feb.7th 2001.
So sorry to see another story so similar.
I really hope Beachman will post the missing details. I would like to know where this took place.
There are a lot of things at fault here. I hope everyone involved learned from them. I still learn something new on every dive.
Glad the out come was without lives lost.
:sunny:
 
Everyone has raised very thoughtful and thought provoking issues. From reading the posts, however, I think I should clear up a few things.

This was not a "hens & chicks" type operation. We did 20 dives in 5 days, and the DM only went in the water twice on our two drift dives. Absolutely no supervised tours like the resort operations. The captain was in twice to take some "souvenir videos"...he was solo and definitely not supervising. They told us up front we were personally responsible, but offered any help (like in-water supervision) if requested. A buddy was required on entry, but what you did after that was up to you. I ended up solo on most of my dives when my buddy ran out of air first. Frankly, we agreed this was the kind of operation we all expected and wanted.

We also pretty well agreed that the DM had done her job in describing the dive. Perhaps a bit more emphasis could have been placed on certain procedures, but the facts were definitely covered and and I'm not sure any more emphasis would have been heard. Also, the DM had probably done this dive at least 50 times over two years without incident or detecting any significant downcurrents. I also feel that the DM was really not "leading" the dive, but rather tending to the float so we could regroup for ascent and she could supervise the pickup after the dive. This could not be delegated to a paying customer. Remember, they also had a DM in a dingy for early ascents.

I did not mention it, but there were 24 divers on the boat. Seven decided not to make the dive, generally because they felt it was more than they might be able to handle. About 12 of the 17 divers who did go were all from the same dive club and had some knowledge of each others diving skills.

Rick and Warhammer seem to express most of the feelings I heard on the boat about the incident, as well as Turnerjd's comments about the DM's and instructor who participated, and Iguana Don hits it right on the head. There's plenty of blame to go around on everyone's part and personal responsibility is the key.

Us "professionals" in the group didn't think straight. I guess we were on vacation, thinking about ourselves and our own skills, trusting the cruise operation for their experience with the dive, and just not exercising good judgement. Anyone could have spoken up, anyone could have suggested certain divers might not be ready, anyone could have questioned the group size...but we didn't.

The other divers could have elected to sit out the dive like seven folks did, but they didn't. Again, people get into a trusting cattle herd mind set and it's "dive...dive...dive". If they can do it, I can do it...actually "we can do it".

The cruise crew could have made the dive in smaller groups. At that depth it was only a 20 minute dive. They could have made 2 or 3 drops and still made a second morning dive elsewhere as normally scheduled...but they didn't. I strongly believe this will be done in the future, judging from some conversations I overheard.

I'd also like to complement the crew on their emergency management procedures. To my observation they we flawless. When the victims surfaced and were picked up by the dingy, the captain contacted another dive boat in the area and arranged for pickup of the divers still down. He immediately left for the nearest helicopter pad and arranged for evacuation while in route. The victims' gear went with them to the chamber after computer data was logged, I understand. Our gear was retained on the pickup boat, and only given back when all computer data had been logged. Anyone who exceeded 130' was given a medical review by the captain. Two folks were given oxygen as a precaution based on their max depth recorded. The captain also filed a number of reports with the coast guard, medical people, and his own management team. Everyone on the dive was asked the next day to write up a page or so relating the facts of their own experiences on the dive.

I feel Iguana Don says it all with "sounds like we can point the finger at lots of people here". That's why I don't feel it's appropriate to name the cruise operation. I know this, I'll never take any dive for granted again! I also belive I'll be less trusting of others, more forthright in expressing my opinions before a dive, and hope like h&ll I'll never again stop thinking like a DM just because I'm not specifically charged with the responsibility of leading a group.

IMHO, I learned there's a lot of ways to be a buddy besides holding hands under water, and that's as much a part of personal resposibility as taking care of yourself.



 
Thanks, Beachman.. been looking forward to your summary. Lessons learned were passed - good. Y'all were still very lucky!
Rick
 
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