What's with the UTD haters?

[SanDiegoSidemount]

I have to ask all of the rest of the UTD divers out there, are you proud of a guy that goes around posting his gas bill to show how much he spent? Is this really who you want representing your organization? Or are you actually embarrassed? I am actually curious to hear your answer, because it goes a long way in how people perceive your organization ... I respect the organization, but do you have the same respect for others? And you really need to get better people defending it.

Well, what I can say from my experience so far is that UTD is not a cult, and the people who dive UTD gear, teach for them, and/or receive training from them are not all the same.

I have been extremely impressed by the very inclusive attitude cultivated by UTD founders AG and Jeff, an attitude which is carried forth by most UTD instructors. They don't "hard sell" UTD gear, and at the introductory levels, you can use just about any equipment you want. On the training side, they invite divers of all skill and experience levels, and strive to help all students become stronger, safer, teamwork oriented "thinking divers". I haven't heard anyone knock the quality of UTD's training.

Unfortunately, I don't think the same inclusive attitude is shared by some of the more vocal UTD divers here on SB. I hope that in this regard, I will be able to add a little fresh air to the conversation. I would ask the long-timers here on SB to try to separate certain individuals' online behavior from the UTD gear and training. It seems that for the regulars around here, these have sadly become synonymous.

 

[DaleC]

But most of all if y'all haters can't afford to pay, to do it right . . .then don't play.

That about sums it up.

Some might find this arrogant and elitist. A few know better and attribute it to the individual. Others unfamiliar with the personalities might equate the attitude to the phrase "do it right" and attribute it to DIR/GUE/UTD as an organizational opinion. They may respond negatively because a.) they are already playing just fine thank you and b.) who are you to say they are not doing it right - (especially using that rig).

Of course, I know of the individual and am under no such delusion.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, what I can say from my experience so far is that UTD is not a cult, and the people who dive UTD gear, teach for them, and/or receive training from them are not all the same.

I have been extremely impressed by the very inclusive attitude cultivated by UTD founders AG and Jeff, an attitude which is carried forth by most UTD instructors. They don't "hard sell" UTD gear, and at the introductory levels, you can use just about any equipment you want. On the training side, they invite divers of all skill and experience levels, and strive to help all students become stronger, safer, teamwork oriented "thinking divers". I haven't heard anyone knock the quality of UTD's training.

Unfortunately, I don't think the same inclusive attitude is shared by some of the more vocal UTD divers here on SB. I hope that in this regard, I will be able to add a little fresh air to the conversation. I would ask the long-timers here on SB to try to separate certain individuals' online behavior from the UTD gear and training. It seems that for the regulars around here, these have sadly become synonymous.

I wouldn't worry about it ... you'll find the same with a lot of things, especially on ScubaBoard. People who think split fins are crap, people who claim that sidemount diving is useless except for cave diving, people who think that you can't properly control buoyancy in anything other than a BP/W, people who think that all PADI instructors are hacks, people who think that unless you too a 100-hour open water class in the '70's your skills are lacking, people who think that ... well ... you get the idea. It's all fun and games on the internet, and everybody's got an opinion to express.

It's what keeps us coming back ... because let's be honest, we all love a good train wreck ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[victorzamora]

You have turn off the left and right valves intermittently to balance consumption between the 2 tanks. Unlike a manifolded doubles diver who swims around with all three valves open. If you forget, you use up one tank while the other remains full. Or worse if you leave them both open you use up one and then the other sequentially. Your buddy would never know and pretty much can't see your gauges, unlike with doubles where the (one) gauge is on a much longer hose and the whole thing can be shown to a buddy if need be.

The bigger question is: why are you diving in "mixed teams" at all? What benefit does having 2 widely different equipment configurations and valve/gas management requirements bring to the table?

I dive a conventional DIR/HOG set of doubles when I can, its simple and easy for nearly everyone to understand. When they don't fit or the hike is far to long to carry them, I dive sidemount. I dive a Hollis SMS100 with the "Edd" modifications. Hoses are as I set them up. Gas management like independent sidemount, which means for all practical purposed I can't run out. With your low pressure manifold you can go OOA (twice even).

As mentioned, you are not the only person donating a long hose to an OOA diver while in sidemount configuration. Although diving without that silly manifold actually decreases (to nearly nil) the probability of having a catastrophic gear failure which renders you OOQ in the first place. You have a lot more complicated crap back there which really doesn't add boo to "safety" despite all marketing claims to the contrary.

Misunderstanding. I'm an indy-SM diver. I can't stand the Z-manifold. I was asking for one of the Z-manifold supporters to explain in what way their system is more compatible with DIR/Hog/Doubles divers than independent sidemount.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But most of all if y'all haters can't afford to pay, to do it right . . .then don't play.

When I was a young man I used to be heavily into playing ping-pong ... I practically majored in it in college. I played in tournaments, and considered myself rather accomplished. One summer when I was visiting my brother in New Jersey he took me to a club where he hung out ... and there were a bunch of people there playing ping-pong, so naturally I asked if I could play. I got matched up against this old dude who kicked my ass. After the game I mentioned something about wishing I had my own paddle, as I would've played a lot better. The old guy put down his paddle, picked up a hard-bound copy of the rule book, took a stance and told me to serve. He kicked my ass again ... this time with a damn book, which completely eliminated his ability to use a backhand.

After the game he casually mentioned that it's not about gear, it's about chops. You either have them or you don't ... and a great deal of having chops involves how you think about the game.

I find the same to be generally true in scuba diving. We all have gear we prefer to dive ... but that's not what defines us as a diver. You either have the chops or you don't. And a great deal of how you dive has less to do with your equipment than it does how you think about the dive.

Just something to think about ... because I know some kick-ass divers who dive in equipment that's way less expensive than mine ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

Misunderstanding. I'm an indy-SM diver. I can't stand the Z-manifold. I was asking for one of the Z-manifold supporters to explain in what way their system is more compatible with DIR/Hog/Doubles divers than independent sidemount.

I think you might be misunderstanding "compatible". While UTD does try to promote "mixed team" diving, this is a bit of a red herring. In my experience, the "compatibility" (consistency) of the Z System is more from the wearer's point of view than the buddy/team's point of view.

So as a diver who uses a Z-System, my personal skills and procedures can remain nearly the same whether I'm diving my trusty old BP/W, sidemount singles or doubles on the Z, or CCR. Obviously the consistency here is not perfect, especially when you get into things like valve drills and deco/stage gas switches. But the core personal skills like S-drill and Basic 6 remain pretty much identical across configurations.

This makes it easy for a diver to switch configurations with a minimum of hassle, which for me is a plus. In a critical situation, I don't want to have to stop and think about my configuration before I react. But then again, I find myself switching configurations frequently. If all you ever dive is independent sidemount doubles, then this "compatibility" is not much of a concern.

If you are my buddy and I'm OOG, I don't give a damn what your long hose is connected to, just that you have the skills to donate it and get us home safely.

 

[Kevrumbo]

When I was a young man I used to be heavily into playing ping-pong ... I practically majored in it in college. I played in tournaments, and considered myself rather accomplished. One summer when I was visiting my brother in New Jersey he took me to a club where he hung out ... and there were a bunch of people there playing ping-pong, so naturally I asked if I could play. I got matched up against this old dude who kicked my ass. After the game I mentioned something about wishing I had my own paddle, as I would've played a lot better. The old guy put down his paddle, picked up a hard-bound copy of the rule book, took a stance and told me to serve. He kicked my ass again ... this time with a damn book, which completely eliminated his ability to use a backhand.

After the game he casually mentioned that it's not about gear, it's about chops. You either have them or you don't ... and a great deal of having chops involves how you think about the game.

I find the same to be generally true in scuba diving. We all have gear we prefer to dive ... but that's not what defines us as a diver. You either have the chops or you don't. And a great deal of how you dive has less to do with your equipment than it does how you think about the dive.

Just something to think about ... because I know some kick-ass divers who dive in equipment that's way less expensive than mine ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

"When men are full of envy they disparage everything, whether it be good or bad."

"Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind."

"A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the public opinion."

Bob . . .it's my instructors, dive-ops guides & managers, teammates' and other divers' around the world over the years who've actually dove with me --those are the opinions I value the most. Not the internet gossip generated & spewed forth here.

And certainly not from people like you, gearhound & tiki bill and others here who profess to make silly "materialistic" or "elitist" causal ascriptions, and anecdotes like yours above. Non sequitur Bob -you don't know me and I don't care to know you.

 

[gearhound]

"When men are full of envy they disparage everything, whether it be good or bad."

"Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind."

"A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the public opinion."

Bob . . .it's my instructors, dive-ops guides & managers, teammates' and other divers' around the world over the years who've actually dove with me --those are the opinions I value the most. Not the internet gossip generated & spewed forth here.

And certainly not from people like you, gearhound & tiki bill and others here who profess to make silly "materialistic" or "elitist" causal ascriptions, and anecdotes like yours above. Non sequitur Bob -you don't know me and I don't care to know you.

Seriously UTD! Is this your best and brightest?

I think the situation has been diffused. Everybody is getting along! Yet you keep trying to stir things up. So I'll bite.

I think you're mistaking people's pity for envy. I'm pretty sure none of us envy you. I think your defensiveness comes from the realization that people don't hate UTD, they just hate you! Me, I couldn't be bothered.

Show of hands...who else here has posted their gas bill to prove their worthiness? Anybody?

 

[rjack321]

Seriously UTD! Is this your best and brightest?

I think the situation has been diffused. Everybody is getting along! Yet you keep trying to stir things up. So I'll bite.

I think you're mistaking peoples pity for envy. I'm pretty sure none of us envy you. I think you're defensiveness comes from the realization that people don't hate UTD, they just hate you? Me, I couldn't be bothered.

Show of hands...who else here has posted their gas bill to prove their worthiness? Anybody?

I don't think Rumbo speaks for UTD. He's certainly not on their staff.

ps I actually do have UTD training, I'm a Dm for them but never bought insurance so I am perpetually inactive. $400/yr seems like a waste of my money...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And certainly not from people like you, gearhound & tiki bill and others here who profess to make silly "materialistic" or "elitist" causal ascriptions, and anecdotes like yours above. Non sequitur Bob -you don't know me and I don't care to know you.

Dude, you're the one who said "if y'all haters can't afford to pay, to do it right ... then don't play."

That makes you the materialist and elitist ... I'm pointing out that doing it right has nothing to do with money ... or gear.

If I was Andrew, I'd be embarrassed to read some of your comments and admit that I know you ... and I'm CERTAIN that you don't speak for any of the UTD folks I know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)