What's your entry look like?

[danvolker]

Dan, I spent a week diving with Curt Bowen up in Canada, and I suspect he could meet your challenge. He quietly and efficiently geared up and got in the water on every dive, and never delayed a single one.

I think choice of gear configuration AND familiarity with it makes a big difference.

I would actually love to get someone that is good at this, for a "How to" type video....like what I did with Errol K and the Frog kick & Reverse Kick video a couple of years ago ( http://youtu.be/kWrlXJ_EL_k ) ....Hopefully one of the better SM guys will take me up on this

 

[SWAMPY459]

If I'm on a boat where I have room to walk around and can walk to a platform and giant stride in then I place the cylinders on the bench, one on each side. I clip them in place, bungee around the valves, hoses where they belong.

Are you saying you do this while sitting on the bench, one tank on each side of you, or are you standing on the floor of the boat with the tanks on a bench in front of you at about knee height?

 

[danvolker]

I'm sure it's the case. There are a lot of divers out there new to sidemount and they aren't very fast with gearing up. I can beat pretty much anyone, backmount or sidemount, in gearing up and getting in the water, but I have over 1000 dives in sidemount configuration in various locations.

So if you were on a charter boat like this one in South florida.....how would you get in the water quickly from being at the bench sitting, to being told to move to the platform with 3 to 4 other divers in a wave being dropped....say with there being 3 waves that would get separate drops to the same bottom site....and when your wave of divers is up, you each move up to the platform, and then jump in on the DIVE, DIVe DIVE command....You might be standing on the platform for 20 seconds to 2 minutes, as the boat runs a course to provide you with the perfect drop point for you trajectory to the bottom site desired. When the Dive command is given, a GOOD diver is in the water the instant the Word is out of the captain's mouth.....and should be 20 feet down and moving down at a good pace in a couple of seconds from the command being given....ideally, you are already swimming down, the moment you hit the water....Easy if you can dive in with your chin tucked, or if you do a giant stride with a 180 degree twist to back flop on entry, then with negative entry you can be swimming down from instant one after impact with water. Bad form, is any kind of giant stride where you pop back up after impact with the water, then need to do ANYTHING on the surface other than get head down and feet pushing you down
See

 

[SWAMPY459]

So if you were on a charter boat like this one in South florida.....how would you get in the water quickly from being at the bench sitting, to being told to move to the platform with 3 to 4 other divers in a wave being dropped....say with there being 3 waves that would get separate drops to the same bottom site....and when your wave of divers is up, you each move up to the platform, and then jump in on the DIVE, DIVe DIVE command....You might be standing on the platform for 20 seconds to 2 minutes, as the boat runs a course to provide you with the perfect drop point for you trajectory to the bottom site desired. When the Dive command is given, a GOOD diver is in the water the instant the Word is out of the captain's mouth.....and should be 20 feet down and moving down at a good pace in a couple of seconds from the command being given....ideally, you are already swimming down, the moment you hit the water....Easy if you can dive in with your chin tucked, or if you do a giant stride with a 180 degree twist to back flop on entry, then with negative entry you can be swimming down from instant one after impact with water. Bad form, is any kind of giant stride where you pop back up after impact with the water, then need to do ANYTHING on the surface other than get head down and feet pushing you down
/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I've been practicing... albeit not on a boat.

Thus far I've been sitting between the two tanks and getting everything clipped and bungied. The problem is it takes being a contortionist to get everything clipped and bungied in that position..... but from stand up, stride, descend there is no pause to do anything.

I've been working on that because I know the boat dives are coming up, I know I do not like doing them that way. not with green eggs and ham, not with sam I am.

 

[danvolker]

So if you were on a charter boat like this one in South florida.....how would you get in the water quickly from being at the bench sitting, to being told to move to the platform with 3 to 4 other divers in a wave being dropped....say with there being 3 waves that would get separate drops to the same bottom site....and when your wave of divers is up, you each move up to the platform, and then jump in on the DIVE, DIVe DIVE command....You might be standing on the platform for 20 seconds to 2 minutes, as the boat runs a course to provide you with the perfect drop point for you trajectory to the bottom site desired. When the Dive command is given, a GOOD diver is in the water the instant the Word is out of the captain's mouth.....and should be 20 feet down and moving down at a good pace in a couple of seconds from the command being given....ideally, you are already swimming down, the moment you hit the water....Easy if you can dive in with your chin tucked, or if you do a giant stride with a 180 degree twist to back flop on entry, then with negative entry you can be swimming down from instant one after impact with water. Bad form, is any kind of giant stride where you pop back up after impact with the water, then need to do ANYTHING on the surface other than get head down and feet pushing you down
/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I've been practicing... albeit not on a boat.

Thus far I've been sitting between the two tanks and getting everything clipped and bungied. The problem is it takes being a contortionist to get everything clipped and bungied in that position..... but from stand up, stride, descend there is no pause to do anything.

I've been working on that because I know the boat dives are coming up, I know I do not like doing them that way. not with green eggs and ham, not with sam I am.

If that is the case, I would think on a boat like Wet Temptations ( the close one I pictured), you could try to get the seat closest to the platform, and then you would already be in the "cue" area for getting on the platform when the dive is about to be commenced.....Most doubles divers like to reduce the length of the walk they have to do as well--if they are carrying much beyond just the doubles....

So if you can stand up, and ALREADY be geared up.....that IS a big deal.....
In your practicing, have you played with different FASt ways to get under...ways superior to a traditional giant stride? Like the mid air twist ( I do this more for my big camera, but it also allows me to get to downward swimming fast), or the head first dive ( chin tucked, mask held by in place by hand so it is not pulled off)..or any other methods?

This initial contact with the water is where many back mounted Cave Divers doing ocean dives, mess up badly, with their giant strides and floating around like ducks....but their learning curve is easy, and with little effort, they can be swimming down on impact....I am just not intuitively seeing how this can be done with SM....Which is why, if someone can show this being done easily, I want to do the Youtube How to video of this

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I was diving this last week with a guy from the Palm Beach area. His statement was, "The captains on the boats around here HATE the sidemount divers, because they take forever and slow everybody down." I don't know if that's the case or not, but it was his perception.

I don't recall whether or not you were on the Channel Islands trip right after I started diving sidemount, but the boat crew made it clear to me that they thought my using sidemount on that trip was a PITA (for them) because of how long it was taking me to get back on board. I eventually just decided to walk up the ladder with my tanks in place and deal with taking them off at the bench.

Getting in was much easier ... I clipped everything in place except the valve bungees and jumped ... bungees are easy in the water.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added March 4th, 2014 at 12:13 PM ----------

Ouch.

Forever gearing up, or diving their doubles? Doubles divers here in CA routinely get warned by boat ops to keep their bottom times reasonable if they're sharing the boat with singles divers on non-tech trips.

I can't see how sidemount by itself makes any difference at all in gearing-up time. IMO, most of that is related to the diver's level of organization and self discipline, not the gear configuration.

Could it be that most of these FL sidemounters are primarily cavers, and lacking boat etiquette?

... or perhaps products of sidemount training from a recreational instructor who never really learned how to dive sidemount, and therefore never taught them how to manage their equipment ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[victorzamora]

Dan, I've done several dives off of boats the size of Wet Temptations in SM. I've also been diving off of much smaller boats (smaller is worse, in my experience). When we're getting close to the site, and all of the backmounted divers are getting ready, I get ready. When they start (or just before), I sit down, clip off my left tank (neck and tail), then plug in my bcd hose and put on my bungeed necklace. I then clip off my right tank (neck and tail), plug in my drysuit (if applicable, typically not), and route my long hose. When the command to stand is given, I stand. When the command to dive is given, I dive.

The initial clipping-in takes longer than BM divers, but not much longer. A doubles diver that gets their arm tangled in their harness would take longer than me. The trouble I have is finding the space to spread the tanks appropriately for my body. It takes two tank slots in between my two tanks to allow for me to clip them off in place. If I can't (tight boat) space them right, I typically clip off my left tank as far left as I can sit. The tank can either hang in front of the bench or sit on the bench next to me, depending on the situation. Then I clip off my right tank as if it were spaced appropriately. Another thing I've done is clipped off my left tank properly and stood next to my right tank. When it's time to stand, I clip the neck off and stand, clipping off the tail as I waddle to the back. I hop in and square away my right hose later.

The biggest trick for me is bungees go on AFTER you splash and BEFORE you come up. In the water they're NBD. In the boat they're a PITA.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I've done several dives off of boats the size of Wet Temptations in SM. I've also been diving off of much smaller boats (smaller is worse, in my experience). When we're getting close to the site, and all of the backmounted divers are getting ready, I get ready. When they start (or just before), I sit down, clip off my left tank (neck and tail), then plug in my bcd hose and put on my bungeed necklace. I then clip off my right tank (neck and tail), plug in my drysuit (if applicable, typically not), and route my long hose. When the command to stand is given, I stand. When the command to dive is given, I dive.

The initial clipping-in takes longer than BM divers, but not much longer. A doubles diver that gets their arm tangled in their harness would take longer than me. The trouble I have is finding the space to spread the tanks appropriately for my body. It takes two tank slots in between my two tanks to allow for me to clip them off in place. If I can't (tight boat) space them right, I typically clip off my left tank as far left as I can sit. The tank can either hang in front of the bench or sit on the bench next to me, depending on the situation. Then I clip off my right tank as if it were spaced appropriately. Another thing I've done is clipped off my left tank properly and stood next to my right tank. When it's time to stand, I clip the neck off and stand, clipping off the tail as I waddle to the back. I hop in and square away my right hose later.

The biggest trick for me is bungees go on AFTER you splash and BEFORE you come up. In the water they're NBD. In the boat they're a PITA.

Victor,
If you were to dive here, with me and we went on Wet Temptations, I would attempt prior to the boat going out, to make sure we could have the space for you that is needed....on this boat, and several others here, like Narcosis, the room is usually not a problem, and they don't like to "pack" the boat with divers.....
So if you ever do visit, then lets do this....and then just experiment on how fast you can be swimming down from splashing.

 

[victorzamora]

I'm a pretty bad example, actually, for three reasons: 1) I've gotten spoiled with caves where I have all day to suit up, 2) I have a messed up back that prohibits some movements that would make it easier, and 3) I get incredibly seasick (didn't start until a few years ago....right as I got into diving more seriously).

However, I'd be plenty happy to try it with you. We could do a "dry run" at the dock to show you what I mean, go over little things, and get on the same page. Then we could try it for real. Next time I head down your way I'll shoot you a PM and we'll schedule a trip.

The two places I've had a lot of success with boat entry have been a local lake with a pontoon boat (water was glassy, tons of room) and in Mx (no room, 2ft waves, but no walk). In Jocassee I walked to the edge and started a negative ascent. In Mx, we did a negative entry on a wreck that was 92ft to the sand in high current. That boat was probably the easiest as I did a back-roll with an overhead bar to hoist myself up. My backroll was a flip in the water, and I started my descent the second I splashed (proper negative entry protocol).

 

[danvolker]

I feel I need to add one more issue to this thread....

When we go out on a boat...do we care more about what our training agency or affiliation/club has to say about what we "ought" to be doing on dives.....or what the "Charter boat operator" is going to like, because "they" are then ones dropping us on a favorite dive site...not the training organization.

Some time ago, I annoyed plenty of GUE's I am sure.... by saying I am going to prefer to dive single tanks if possible, because the best charter boats for South Fl dive sites, are set up for single tank diving....they are set up for you to bring 2 tanks, and the dive durations and intervals are following a business model for 2 single tank dives. When a BM doubles diver shows up, there are some issues....most operators won't say anything, but clearly there are downsides to doubles coming on board....the crew is more likely to injure themselves in trying to move the doubles for you....and since they don't really fit well in single tank racks, and they weigh alot more, there is more chance of damaging a nice new looking boat somehow....and of course, sure, no one cares about this wear and tear issue....

Then there is the idea that you are going to do 2 different dives....do this with doubles, and there is a great chance that on your second dive, you will have less gas than you would want. The solution, is to have 2 sets of doubles, and switch your harness and wing after the 2nd dive....but..this uses up a great deal of room on a dive charter boat---the captain is not going to like this if a large number of divers start doing this--particularly if the dives they are doing are baby dives to 60 or 80 feet--and you really do not need doubles for them----and the use of them begins to compromise the dive experiences for the OTHER passengers.

So....on this theme....you would see me leaning more toward a SM diver, in that they can be smarter in the number of tanks they need to bring, and with what they will actually use/need. Still, it takes up lots more space than you would use if you are diving single tanks...which from a boat operator perspective is a negative. Certainly on a tech trip, all this changes--everyone needs a lot more room. The boat can charge more --and should....but many developing tech divers want to dive their doubles or SM rigs on recreational boats and sites for the practice....and the issue with this, is that they often use up more resources, endanger crew, can take too long to get in the water to join up with the normal divers at the dive site underwater....etc...



I really don't care what any agency position is, on anything....I and many here on this board, have been diving long enough to know that we know what is going to be good for us to do, and what is not---regardless of what some agency wants to say is the new color of the month..... So when an agency is going to PUSH using doubles on 80 foot or 100 foot dives, I don't like the result on "recreational boats", and I would NEVER do this myself...I think it is rude, and self involved, and I think it is a behavior that should be discussed.

This is not a factor in me shooting a video of proper SM entries, as if we do this, we can pick a boat with lots of room, and a day that taking up lots of space will not make us obnoxious to other divers.