when breathing technique turns into headaches

[GQMedic]

Sorry Charlie, (I bet you've heard THAT before...)

But, ummm, you are WRONG... *smiles*


Don't believe me, hey, no problem! By all means, try the delema at hand for youself a few times. When you experience your first needle thoracostomy in the field, you'll have a better understanding and subsequent ER and surgical experience from a pneumo.

And yes, I am a paramedic and an instructor. *blink blink*

And in your profile, I noticed you are not a paramedic. But hey, I'm only a medic, what do I know?

Charlie99 once bubbled...
"YOu are long winded and WRONG"..Since the epiglottis and the rest of my airway is open, the path of least resistance is to bubble out of my mouth. Please explain why it won't just go out through the mouth.
The pause is not necessarily at the exhale end. You can do it at either end. I have found that having the pause at or near full inhale works better for me.

Yes, there is gas in the lungs. If you go up, the air expands, and bubbles out through your mouth and reg exhaust port, provided you haven't closed your epiglottis.

And wrong. Your profile says you are both a Naui instructor and a paramedic. I shouldn't be surprised that a lot of divers have misconceptions in this area if this is what their instructors think.

You can easily verify whether or not your airway is open. Suck in a full breath, then go lean over a chair putting pressure on your bellybutton. If your airway is open, air will be forced out. You can also get a feel for voluntarily controlling your epiglottis by repeatedly open and closing it like you would while coughing.

 

[Charlie99]

GQMedic once bubbled...
Don't believe me, hey, no problem! By all means, try the delema at hand for youself a few times. When you experience your first needle thoracostomy in the field, you'll have a better understanding and subsequent ER and surgical experience from a pneumo.

And yes, I am a paramedic and an instructor. *blink blink*

And in your profile, I noticed you are not a paramedic. But hey, I'm only a medic, what do I know?

At this point, where we seem to understand each other, but continue to disagree is where I normally just go on. But this is a very important subject.

Yes, I have done ascents from 70' up to 15', very slowly, neither breathing in, nor breathing out.... simply letting excess air bubble out while I ascending more slowly that the rest of a group of divers.

No, I'm not a paramedic. Perhaps it would be best if some of the doctors on the board commented. Perhaps Dr Paul Thomas for example. While he has not directly said what I am saying, perhaps you should review this post:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=330382&highlight=sett#post330382

 

[GQMedic]

Thanks for the link.

Charlie99 once bubbled...
At this point, where we seem to understand each other, but more slowly that the rest of a group of divers.

No, I'm not a paramedic. Perhaps it wouldcontinue to disagree is where I normally just go on. But this is a very important subject.

Yes, I have done ascents from 70' up to 15', very slowly, neither breathing in, nor breathing out.... simply letting excess air bubble out while I ascending be best if some of the doctors on the board commented. Perhaps Dr Paul Thomas for example. While he has not directly said what I am saying, perhaps you should review this post:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=330382&highlight=sett#post330382

 

[Snowbear]

GQMedic once bubbled...
... this not TRAPPED air expands when ambient pressure is reduced through change of depth that can and does occur in as little as two seconds, the air in his lungs will expand, It must go somewhere. Since effort is imposed with this pause, the path of least resistance is now the lung tissues. The pressure inside of the pleural space is negative. This is ripe pickings, the air has no place to go, the risk is pneumothorax...

Hmmm - seems to me if as he says, his airway (epiglottis) is actually, truely open, the path of least resistance is out the mouth, regardless of what the diaphragm and intercostals are doing?

 

[simonk999]

Because it specifically says "breathing gently out" on the way up. Now, charlie99, don't get me wrong, i agree with you, but because the good dr mentions breathing out, it doesn't really refute GQMedic's contention.

 

[TurtleBubble]

GQMedic once bubbled...
I addressed issues I felt needed addressing with two astarisks (ie **)

After 25 dives or so, I was breathing on a slow rythm, whitout thinking much of it. And everything was fine with my dives.

I noticed that between inhaling and exhaling, i made an unvoluntary stop of 2 to 3 seconds, leaving the airways open.

> Is that also "skip breathing" ??

**Sure is! DONT DO THAT. Your RMV will improve the MORE you dive. Do not think about breathing, just breathe normally. You suck down what you suck down. If you need to suck down MORE gas, your body will let you know by increasing respirations.

Thanks all for your answers! I see there is controversy, but I do agree with GQMedic, mainly for safety reasons: I don't want to argue about whether it's possible to leave airways open or not, I am not a specialist. We all have been taught to dive safely, and when the only way to prove that leaving airways open is possible is to do an ascent and find out that there is no lung expansion... it seem to me a dangerous behavior!

When you exhale you know what you're doing: it's conscious, air is going out of your lungs, same for inhaling, but what about "leaving airways open": how do you know you're doing right and don't risk anything? Well, instinct of conservation should prevent us to try it!!

But...but, there is a limit to "continuous breathing" a slight as it might be there MUST be a stop between breathing in and out: that's mathematics! And what I said in my first message is that I was doing a stop of one to two seconds "naturally" and it's only after analysing my breathing rythm that i discovered this slight pause. So here is my new question:

> Is that really natural? Was I skip breathing without noticing it? Whats the natural stop length in breathing??

Thanks guys!

 

[Dryglove]

This has been discussed in the past and with a little searching you may be able to stumble across it.

Yes you can inhale and hold your air in your lungs without closing your epiglottis. As long as your epiglottis remains open the air is able to exit your lungs as needed. If you close your epiglottis and start to rise your toast though, so be sure to leave it open.

Charlie99 pretty well summs it up in his posts as that is what i have read from this board from those that are in the know and makes plenty of sense.

I often times inhale and slightly hold it shortly making sure my airway stays open at all times. You have to use your diaphram to hold the air and not your epiglottis by closing it.

If your a beginner it would probably be best not to do this until you gain more experience.