When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[tursiops]

There must be a thousand threads on this. The OP should read at least some of them and see if he still has a question.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2015 at 05:27 PM ----------

I'm sure someone will correct me here but if you have a ow cert don't you need a aow cert before deep diving class?
since ow cert is 60 aow is 100 and deep dive is 130 wouldn't that make the aow pointless if you can go around it with a deep dive class ?

Requirement for Deep (from the PADI Specialty Instructor Manual):
Certified as a PADI Adventure Diver or Advanced Open Water Diver or have a qualifying certification from another training organization. In this case, a qualifying certification is defined as proof of certification beyond entry level (at least two certifications total) with proof of 20 or more logged dives documenting experience in deep diving and underwater navigation. Verify student diver prerequisite skills and provide remediation as necessary.

[added later]
SDI Deep has no prerequisites other than OW diver. And it is only two dives, not four like PADI.

 

[stuartv]

I'm sure someone will correct me here but if you have a ow cert don't you need a aow cert before deep diving class?
since ow cert is 60 aow is 100 and deep dive is 130 wouldn't that make the aow pointless if you can go around it with a deep dive class ?

PADI Deep Diver requires 4 dives, I believe. If you do AOW first, you'll do one of the deep dives there and then only have to do 3 during the Deep course. If you go directly to Deep, you'll do all 4 dives.

As far as I can tell, AOW is pointless - if you're going to take the full Deep and Underwater Nav specialties anyway. But, if all you care about is having the right credentials to do most of the dives offered by vacation destination dive operators, then AOW seems to have the benefit that it will get you the card you need to do MOST of the dives those dive ops offer, for the least time and money spent.

At least, that's my take on it. I am not bothering with PADI AOW, which is the same as SDI Advanced Adventure Diver. I'm going to take the full Deep and Underwater Nav specialties. And some others that I'm interested in. And I'm going to assume that with those individual credentials and the corresponding dives logged, that will satisfy the dive operator for any dives I want to do that just say "Advanced" required. Until I get my SDI Advanced Scuba Diver card, that is.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Here's where I stand on this. SEI OW students are technically certified to 100 ft right out of the OW class. They are cautioned to build up to that over time OR take advanced level training to accelerate the process if they so choose. I am ok with taking my OW students who have graduated from my class to 100 ft. IF they show me they have the maturity to do so safely. This means unless it's in a class they are planning the dive. Gas required, emergency deco procedures, etc. They have been trained to do this BTW.

Now if I am diving with a PADI, SSI, SDI, or other OW diver who has a recommended limit of 60 ft from their agency I have a moral and ethical obligation to observe those limits unless they are enrolled in a Deep or Advanced Level class with me. I cannot, to me anyway, morally justify guiding them on a non training fun dive beyond their recommended limits and still call myself a dive professional. How others can is beyond my understanding.

This is where I have a big problem with some locations where supposed pro's are taking people beyond their recommended limits and justifying it by saying "it's not a training dive so the standards don't apply to guided dives like this." It's why I strongly recommend to all my students to not patronize those locations and if they happen to end up on a boat with a bunch of OW divers from other agencies and op says they are doing a planned and guided 100 ft wall dive to seriously consider aborting and asking for a refund.

If a professional is acting as a paid representative and guiding divers they should be observing the recommended limits of those divers. Doing otherwise is unprofessional, unethical, and immoral.

 

[boulderjohn]

Training agencies have standards for professionals to follow during training dive. They have no standards for what you do outside of a training dive, because they have no legal authority to do anything about your personal practices. If you are taking any SDI (or other agency) class, the instructor must conform to the limitations of that class. If I am conducting an OW class for PADI, I cannot take students below 60 feet on dives #3 and #4. If I am conducting an AOW deep dive, we cannot go below 100 feet. Once the student is done with that training, I have no control over what he or she does. The agency recommends that divers stay within certain limits, but it has no legal authority to enforce it.

What about a DM running a dive? Leading a dive is not a class. It is not part of training. Although that DM may have been trained by and might be currently certified by a particular agency, that DM does not work for that agency and has no agency rules to follow. That DM works for a dive operator and follows the dive operator's rules. Many dive operators will adhere to limits that roughly conform to typical agency recommendations. Most do not.

That distinction is very much beginning to blur, however. For example, in Belize, dive operators were routinely blasting depth recommendations into smithereens on trips to the Blue Hole, frequently taking brand new OW divers to 130 feet and even below that on those dives. PADI wrote a strongly worded letter urging Belize to do something about that. It had to be local authorities who did it, though. The only thing PADI could have done would be to withdraw PADI affiliation for any shop doing that, provided they had official affiliation. Many don't. If PADI were to drop their affiliation, they could just go on as before. There is no law that says a dive operator has to have official agency affiliation. If the shop wanted an official agency affiliation and PADI dropped them, they could just go with another agency.

Another area of blurring involves a recent lawsuit. In that lawsuit, two DMs made an error calling the roll a the end of a dive, missing a diver who was still in the water. They got sued, and PADI did too, on the theory that the DMs were acting on behalf of PADI because they were certified by PADI. That suit was successful, which is remarkable because nothing like that had ever happened before. PADI has since gone to great lengths to make it plain that working DMs and instructors are not agents of PADI, regardless of their certification. If further lawsuits routinely indicate that training agencies are liable for the actions of the people they certify even when those people are not involved in training activities, you might start to see some significant changes.

 

[Wookie]

PADI will tell you not to exceed your training and experience. In fact, they say exactly that. You were trained to 60 feet in OW class. The generally accepted limit for OW no deco diving is 130 feet. That came about back when we were all using Navy tables.

My insurance company puts a limit on my recreational diving of 130 feet, so I either take you to a place where you can't exceed 130 feet, or I brief you beforehand not to. If you choose to anyway, I will not let you dive from my boat again, because I am outside of the limits of my insurance policy, and if you get hurt on a subsequent dive, you will sue me and win.

When getting an SDI certification, I have to tell them as the instructor how deep I took you. I have to tell them whether it was salt or fresh, too. They use that as a landmark so when you sue them, they have a leg to stand on to defend themselves in court that you were diving exceeding your training.

 

[TSandM]

The key to doing any dive safely is to have the knowledge and skills that are required to do it. That doesn't just include doing it when everything goes perfectly, but coping with the most likely problems you are going to encounter during that dive.

When we are extending our envelope with training, we do it with an instructor. The dive is lopsided, because the student doesn't have the knowledge and skills to do that dive, which is why he is taking the class -- but the instructor shoulders a larger part of the burden of shaping the dive so that the student CAN go beyond his limits, and of dealing with the fallout should anything go awry. That's a "trust me" dive, in the sense that the student trusts the instructor to ensure that limits aren't pushed too far, and that nothing untoward occurs. (BTW, in tech and cave training, this is a big part of why you need to be VERY particular about your instructor!)

When you are contemplating pushing your limits in other settings, you need to ask yourself some questions. First off, do you even know what all the ramifications of this particular dive are? Deep diving doesn't just involve dealing with narcosis or short no-deco times -- it also involves gas planning, as Kevrumbo's post says, and it also involves realizing that the deeper you go, the more desirable it becomes to be able to deal with at least some issues underwater. It's not good if you have to surface from 100 feet because you can't get your mask cleared, or because your regulator has started to breathe a little wet. A new OW diver, thinking about a 100 foot dive, might not even consider these things, just as OW divers swimming into caves don't consider silting and loss of visibility as a potentially lethal risk.

Whether having an experienced or professional buddy changes the picture can depend on the dive, the diver, and sometimes even the day. When I was a new diver, I did quite a few dives with more experienced buddies, and ceded responsibility for navigation to them, because I did not know the sites, I did not navigate well, and frankly, just managing my own buoyancy and staying with my buddy was about all the bandwidth I had. However, had I gotten separated and lost, I could always have surfaced, so there was a definite limit to how much trouble I could get into. If you can ask yourself, "Could I do this dive WITHOUT this other person's experience?" and the answer is yes, you are in no particular difficulties. If the answer is no, then you have to think about what the consequences of getting separated from the person upon whom you are depending (or their incapacity for whatever reason), and if those consequences are dire, don't do it.

Where new divers really get into trouble is either not doing the thinking required, or not recognizing that they simply don't know enough to know what the dangers of that particular dive are. In specific, not being aware of gas requirements for deep or long dives, and not being aware of environmental dangers, especially in overhead environments.

 

[boulderjohn]

When you are contemplating pushing your limits in other settings, you need to ask yourself some questions. First off, do you even know what all the ramifications of this particular dive are?

I believe this is the key concept here. When you consider diving beyond your training limitations, you have to understand and accept that there is a reason those limitations are there. Here on ScubaBoard we frequently have people start or post in threads in which they dismiss limitations as just some "nanny" stifling their fun with unnecessary rules. You see it with depth. You see it with caves. Because they don't have that training, they don't know the reason for the limits, and they make the foolish decision that if they don't know the reason for those limits, then there must not be a reason for those limits.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I dove with a guy for years to depths past 160 feet. Spearfisherman don't normally talk about "certifications" much or at all.

Then one day he started asking me about certification stuff and he mentioned that he needed to get certified so he could dive on vacation. I never knew he wasn't even certified. He was self-taught for the most part. I never felt immoral for diving with him, but since i was not an active instructor, I could do nothing for him.

I did find it funny that we first did a (deco) dive to well past recreational limits (while his instructor stayed on the boat) and then she took him for a second dive to 60 feet or something (on the same day/trip) and then she signed off on him getting his PADI card. She was one of those technical/cave divers and she only needed our help for a little bit to teach her how to handle the floatline.

Qualifications are more important than certifications if you are diving from a private boat.

Progressing SLOWLY and hopefully with someone who knows what they are doing is more important than completing some of the abbreviated courses I now see. I allow my son to dive to 130 as a 15 yr old and use nitrox and his last and only certification class was 6 years ago when he was 10 yrs old.

 

[stuartv]

John, that is interesting.

I can see where a certified instructor might only be accountable to their certifying agency for what they do during training.

But, doesn't a certification of Dive Master represent a professional certification to function as the leader (and guide?) of a dive? I don't know, but I would expect that being certified as a DM does not represent any ability for the DM to conduct training. So, it seems like a certified DM functioning in their professional capacity (just like a certified instructor, conducting training) would be liable to adhere to the guidelines of their certifying agency when leading dives. I mean that is exactly what their certification says that they are qualified to do, right?

I would not expect the agency itself to be liable for the actions of a DM except in a case where the agency was notified of a DM regularly violating the professional guidelines laid down by the agency, or the agency would otherwise reasonably be expected to know the DM was violating guidelines, and then being negligent in rectifying the DM's actions or revoking their certification.

The agency may wish to take the stance that certifying a person a DM means ONLY that they completed the agencies DM training successfully and the agency has no responsibility for what the DM does after that. But, at least in the U.S., I suspect that most consumers are going to take the stance that if the agency certifies a DM to act as a dive professional (leader/guide), and particularly if the agency requires that DM to pay periodic certification renewal fees, then the consumers have a reasonable basis to expect that the agency takes reasonable steps to ensure that the DM adheres to the agency's guidelines in order to maintain their certification. And I further suspect that a good lawyer would have no trouble convincing a court to view it that way as well.

The successful suit you mentioned, which sounds like it goes way beyond what is "just" is, nevertheless, not surprising. It sounds like the plaintiff's lawyer went for where the money is. Presumably the DMs in question were of the typical, not-remotely-made-of-money, variety. So, as happens WAY too often in the U.S., a jury was convinced to judge against the "parent" who really should not be responsible, simply because the "parent's" insurance would pay the plaintiff some fat judgment.

And if that suit was successful, I have little doubt that PADI/SDI/etc. will be held liable when there is a case of a DM doing stupid stuff on a regular basis that finally causes a death and a lawsuit.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2015 at 06:09 PM ----------

When you are contemplating pushing your limits in other settings, you need to ask yourself some questions. First off, do you even know what all the ramifications of this particular dive are?

Right. But, that's really the nub of the question. If you've only been trained for 60 feet, then how can you even KNOW if you know ALL the ramifications? You really can't. The only way you can know (and even then it's not a certain thing) is if you take a course and, in the end, the instructor tells you "NOW you know what you need to know." And even then, it's down to how much you trust that instructor's judgment.

So, it's back to my reformulation of the REAL question:

Do DMs or Instructors have any official guidelines on when they can take a diver beyond the diver's certified limits?

If a DM takes a fresh OW diver beyond 60 feet, are they violating any agency guideline? What about an instructor who does it outside of a formal class?

 

[nolatom]

I took a new guy with whom I was insta-buddied, to 100 feet salt water off Pensacola, the "Chevron Platforms" for you locals, on a perfect day, clear, warm, no current.

This structure tops out at about 80-85, so 60 would have been a mid-ocean hang. We stayed well above the 134' sand. I had had a long familiarization talk with him on the long ride out, and thought he would be all right, if he wasn't we'd just turn the dive. Well, he was all right, better than many buddies I've had with many more dives. So if it was "illegal" then I'm bad. I have shared this story before, but I believe it was more along the topic lines of, "thanks to you unsung and good instructors out there who turn out good divers with an OW card".