Why are 2 AOW-level divers allowed to dive unaccompanied?

[DaleC]

Are there people standing on the beach checking cert cards or do you have to file a dive plan when you get an air fill?
Seriously wondering how such an idea is enforced.

 

[Phil_C]

I assume Ange is talking about PADI standards, but that perhaps she is misunderstanding them.

PADI divers, from OW levels onwards can dive with another certified PADI diver, unsupervised to the level of their previous experience of conditions etc. and with the PADI depth limits applied, and they do not need a guide or DM to do so. The same rules apply to an AOW diver who can dive as an unsupervised buddy pair with an OW diver or higher.

CMAS has a different view of qualification levels and diving without supervision and require that both divers are qualified divers and that at least one is a CMAS 2* diver before they allow a buddy pair to dive unsupervised. So two CMAS 1* divers should not be diving as a buddy pair without additional higher qualified supervision.

As has been mentioned the French use the CMAS system which they have enshrined in a national law that says divers must either hold an appropriate French CMAS certificate (as I understand it they don't accept CMAS certificates from other countries) or dive with someone who holds an appropriate level of French CMAS certificate for the depth and conditions.

So by law in France divers cannot dive together at CMAS 1* level, and in addition other agency qualifications whether PADI OW, AOW or anything else or any divers holding any grades from other agencies cannot dive full stop without a French CMAS diver being there.

I have never been sure about how or whether they apply this law and I think they may only be applied by French dive centres and operators for tourists, so commercial enterprises.

Certainly we have taken a club rib over to France several times, and chartered day boats from the UK to French waters and have never had to comply with having a local guide along or French CMAS as a DM. France does have some funny views on things, and maybe if we wanted air fills we would have a problem, and likewise if we had an accident the authorities might cause problems but it hasn't been a problem yet.

Also there are plenty of PADI schools in France as far as I know and I have never seen them offering dual PADI/CMAS certs so I suspect this is a law that does not get applied much.

P

 

[FinnMom]

Please don't confuse France with the very wide world of CMAS diving.

In the wide world a certified diver is certified to dive, buddies are strongly recommended and there is no dive police.

 

[boulderjohn]

Also there are plenty of PADI schools in France as far as I know and I have never seen them offering dual PADI/CMAS certs so I suspect this is a law that does not get applied much.

This will be slightly off topic, but it may shed some light on PADI in France. If there are any PADI people from France reading this, I would be interested in more information.

If you look at the PADI Student Record File (SRF) used in the United States, in both the Confined Water and Knowledge Review sections, the instructions clearly state that if one instructor has done all the work in either of those areas, that instructor can skip all the lines on every item for individual initials and just sign once at the bottom of the section. Our shop had someone even call PADI and confirm that, which was a great relief to instructors weary of filling in so many initials for so many skills for so many students. When a student is done with all of that and wants to complete the certification while on vacation, that page is copied, and the student merely needs to show it to the certifying instructor while on vacation.

We then had a student get back to us with a problem. He was on a Caribbean vacation, and the dive shop there was refusing to accept the referral because all of the spaces for initials were not filled in. A flurry of phone calls, including a confirmation call to PADI, explained to the shop that those initials were not necessary. Sorry, the shop replied. We are a French island in the Caribbean. We are not bound by PADI Americas. We are bound by PADI Europe, and PADI Europe apparently supported their contention that every space had to be initialed. The student had to retake both the classroom and confined water portions of the course if he wanted to be certified. (IIRC, he just skipped the diving he had planned to do on the vacation and got certified after returning home.)

My take away is that just because a shop in France uses the PADI name, it does not mean that its rules and policies will be the same as those to which we are accustomed in the United States.

 

[tursiops]

This will be slightly off topic, but it may shed some light on PADI in France. If there are any PADI people from France reading this, I would be interested in more information.

If you look at the PADI Student Record File (SRF) used in the United States, in both the Confined Water and Knowledge Review sections, the instructions clearly state that if one instructor has done all the work in either of those areas, that instructor can skip all the lines on every item for individual initials and just sign once at the bottom of the section. Our shop had someone even call PADI and confirm that, which was a great relief to instructors weary of filling in so many initials for so many skills for so many students. When a student is done with all of that and wants to complete the certification while on vacation, that page is copied, and the student merely needs to show it to the certifying instructor while on vacation.

We then had a student get back to us with a problem. He was on a Caribbean vacation, and the dive shop there was refusing to accept the referral because all of the spaces for initials were not filled in. A flurry of phone calls, including a confirmation call to PADI, explained to the shop that those initials were not necessary. Sorry, the shop replied. We are a French island in the Caribbean. We are not bound by PADI Americas. We are bound by PADI Europe, and PADI Europe apparently supported their contention that every space had to be initialed. The student had to retake both the classroom and confined water portions of the course if he wanted to be certified. (IIRC, he just skipped the diving he had planned to do on the vacation and got certified after returning home.)

My take away is that just because a shop in France uses the PADI name, it does not mean that its rules and policies will be the same as those to which we are accustomed in the United States.

If this story is true, I'd like to know which islands are in this situation, so I can avoid them when taking groups to the Caribbean. I assume this applies to Guadeloupe, Martinique, St Barts, and the French end of St Martin?

 

[boulderjohn]

If this story is true, I'd like to know which islands are in this situation, so I can avoid them when taking groups to the Caribbean. I assume this applies to Guadeloupe, Martinique, St Barts, and the French end of St Martin?

I don't remember which island it was. I may never have been told. I learned about it in an instructor meeting for the shop for which I worked then. We were told about it as an explanation as to why from then on we would have to initial every blasted line, no matter how badly our hands were cramping, no matter how clearly the instructions may be, because it was not fair for our students to run into a situation like this.

 

[Nemrod]

Hi all - I have always wondered why 2 AOW-level divers without Rescue Diver certification are allowed to dive unaccompanied. IMHO, there should be a minimum requirement of Rescue Diver certification plus a minimum number of dives. Could someone shed light on this please? Thank you.
Ange

Huh? If you are open water certified then you are certified to dive open water. Am I missing something?

I have been known to spear "Dive Police" so good luck with stopping me.

N

 

[Redshift]

In Portugal, in the past, it was also the case that two CMAS 1 divers could not dive on their own. It was later changed when the European reference levels were introduced otherwise CMAS 1 would be seen as inferior to PADI OW, that clearly states that they are autonomous divers, even though the CMAS course is more thorough. A forced lowering of standards...

 

[Phil_C]

Please don't confuse France with the very wide world of CMAS diving.

In the wide world a certified diver is certified to dive, buddies are strongly recommended and there is no dive police.

I am CMAS trained and do not confuse the French restrictions with CMAS generally - and since 2012 CMAS internationally does not follow the standard set in the German table above either - two one star divers can dive without supervision together according to the following - which is taken from the CMAS website standards page -

A CMAS One Star Diver shall be trained such that when assessed by a CMAS Instructor, he shall
be deemed to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to procure air, equipment, and other
diving services and to plan, conduct, and log open-water dives that do not require mandatory inwater
decompression stops, without the supervision of a CMAS Instructor or CMAS Dive Leader,
when properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver of at least the same level,
provided the diving activities undertaken, the diving conditions and the diving area are similar, equal
or better to those in which training was received

But this is a recent change to the international standards - P

 

[WestCoastDivr]

It's a shame that people feel like badge collecting is equivalent to skill/experience and certifications should be the be-all end-all in diving. Sure there is a lot people can learn from the right courses with the right instructors, but I know people who aren't even OW certified that have been diving for 20-40 years and are amazing divers. Ultimately I think that personal choice, risk evaluation, and personal ability are what people should rely on when determining what dives they can do. For example, I have an open water certification with a specialty deep diving cert and the only dives I was accompanied on were my open water dives. I have now completed about 50-60 dives "unaccompanied" but with local dive buddies. If you are so insecure that you feel everyone should be accompanied for the entire start of their diving career, maybe you should consider a safer hobby