Why Are Wing Comfort Harnesses Frowned Upon?

[Diving Dubai]

I put this in the Advanced section to allow a more open debate equally I didn't wish to intrude in the Tech section

A recent post from someone with a Dive Rite Transpac wanting to know if it was suitable for a Fundies class (the answer was no) got me to thinking. Why not, indeed why are comfort harnesses on wings frowned upon by some / most?


As it happens I have one. I do have a conventional Harness and BP gathering dust in my garage but prefer my comfort harness for a couple of reasons

The primary one, it that in the summer diving a neutrally buoyant suit and a steel tank, I’m carrying zero weight and still slightly over weighted. So don’t want the additional weight of a plate

I prefer the fact that it places the weight of the tank on my hips on a boat having previously had a back injury

But those are my preferences. Now I’m not trying to say GUE are wrong, their course their rules after all. But I want to know why. Why are comfort harnesses frowned upon, what reasons and what’s the data to back up those reasons?

Before someone chimes in with the “failure points of plastic buckles” line I request you back this up with real world proof rather than some anecdote passed down from your grandmother about your scuba diving hamster etc.

“Because wearing a hog harness and long hose makes me look like a tech diver and buckles and short hose makes me look like a novice” comments also aren’t allowed (unless you can prove it or admit to it)

As a thought before the discussion progresses and something to conside, Many people are happy to use an A clamp which has a greater potential for problems than a Din connector, but no-one calls foul on those. This isn’t a thread about Din vs A Clamp though just an example

So happy to hear comments, to serve an inquisitive mind maybe even to start a reasoned debate. I’m not seeking justification for my choice just wondering why the disapproval from some quarters

But remember my rules say you need to back up your statements with evidence.


Disclaimer – I was in a previous career, a material scientist within aerospace, so metallics, non-metallics, Non Destructive Inspection and stress analysis used to be within my remit – again just to keep opinions honest

 

[Patoux01]

If it's adjustable, you'll never get the d-rings at the same place twice in 2 dives.
Plastic wears out, breaks if someone steps on it or if something smashes it. Don't want to miss a dive for something that doesn't bring any advantage... If those buckles are metal they make the rig needlessly heavy.
Padding usually adds buoyancy, and since it serves no purpose underwater, it doesn't belong on dive gear.

Just to name a few things. And no, I won't go and look it up to see if someone broke a plastic clip.

 

[boulderjohn]

Well, about your rules.... You asked why something was frowned upon. Why can't someone answer the question (why they are frowned upon) without himself being a believer? I can tell you why different religions have different beliefs without sharing those beliefs.

I also wonder if you are asking your question in the right place and in the right way. Are you specifically asking for a response from GUE about a specific class--Fundamentals? If so, only GUE personnel can respond. If not, you have hindered the responses from those of us who are not GUE. For example, I teach a PADI class that is very similar to Fundamentals in terms of academic content and performance skills, but I don't care what equipment you show up in for that class. If instead you are talking about a tech class, my answer will be different.

 

[decompression]

Good points and a fair inquiry.
The reasons are several, some still valid and others debatable.

A deluxe harness may have unnecessarily buoyant material, inconsistently placed buckles/rings excetra which may delay or impede rescue or operation from a team member.
The strength of plastics now is debatable but 20 years ago it's quality was much more questionable.
Webbing will give warning signs before failure unlike other materials.

A properly fitted single piece webbing harness is comfortable for almost any dive type with few exceptions (injury, deformity etc).

Webbing is available almost anywhere in the world (unlike DIN valves) so it's a good fit for a universal standard. It's also cost effective.

A metal or kydex plate has its benefits but, while preferred, isn't necessary if a soft plate is a better fit for the circumstances. This is more due to proper weighting than just a materiel.


I'm a DIR instructor but you maybe suprised at how less ridged the standards are compared to popular misconceptions.

In general, if it's well thought out and makes sense, it's acceptable. The caveat is that it can't just be for a single diver it must work universally for a team, from open water to advanced cave.

 

[tbone1004]

well you have a couple conflicting issues.

The title of the thread addresses comfort harnesses, which because Transpacs are addressed, the Dive Rite equivalent is the Transplate.
Your post then specifies the Transpac.

Disclaimer, I own a pair of Transpacs, a Transplate harness, and multiple hogarthian rigs. I used to believe that the Transplate was a requirement for me when diving a backplate, but that was only due to not having a backplate that fit properly. When I invested in a Deep Sea Supply long backplate, I was able to comfortably wear a single piece harness for the first time.

So let's address some advantages and disadvantages to the Transpac. In singles, they do work quite well, however under most circumstances require ballast to be added in the form of a weight belt or pockets as opposed to having 6lbs on your back. In single al80, this is actually about perfect for the weight that is required to offset the gas in the tank. In doubles I actually think they work better than singles which is what it was originally designed for, but does require stabilizer plates.

The Transplate is the Transpac harness on the backplate of your choice. If you have to regularly carry backmount tanks for extended distances, then the Transplate is a lot easier to manage and has the stability and ballast advantages associated with a hard backplate, but how often are you regularly carrying your tanks more than 50yds? The soft backpacks also don't actually do much to contour to your back because in both singles and doubles, the tanks are rigid and not going to comform.

If you have an injury you are certainly in a different scenario than what the "rules" were designed around, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best choice for the job at hand. With an injury, primarily to the shoulders where you need to move the straps, then the Dive Rite Deluxe harness gives you a chest strap that helps to redistribute the weight and you can put a back pad and neoprene shoulder sleeves on if you are diving without exposure protection. If you're diving with a wetsuit or drysuit, then the padding doesn't actually help and most will remove from the Transpac and not purchase the back padding with the Transplate in my experience

 

[PfcAJ]

I've seen plastic buckles break on numerous occasions, typically smashed between a tank and something else.

Transpac type harnesses typically have extra d-rings that aren't needed and a sternum strap that may or may not interfere with your drysuit inflator.

All in all, there isn't any real benefit, but some distinct drawbacks.

A-clamp vs DIN does get attention. DIN only in GUE technical/cave classes, but its also recognized that yoke valves are insanely common around the world, hence them being ok for the recreational courses.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Well, about your rules.... You asked why something was frowned upon. Why can't someone answer the question (why they are frowned upon) without himself being a believer? I can tell you why different religions have different beliefs without sharing those beliefs.

I also wonder if you are asking your question in the right place and in the right way. Are you specifically asking for a response from GUE about a specific class--Fundamentals? If so, only GUE personnel can respond. If not, you have hindered the responses from those of us who are not GUE. For example, I teach a PADI class that is very similar to Fundamentals in terms of academic content and performance skills, but I don't care what equipment you show up in for that class. If instead you are talking about a tech class, my answer will be different.

Thanks for your comment. My rules were supposed to be rather tongue in cheek, and I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

I didn't put it in the Dir or GUE forum only becaus eit was intended to be an open question and not speciffically aimed at DIr or GUE etc

I'm not specifically asking about GUE or indeed any specific course. If I did want to do a specific course then I would comply with the course requirements and not turn up with my gear and try to argue the point.


I'd like to hear why what you different responses would be for tech and rec classes. Again out of interest

 

[Yoyoguy]

I will say this...even in regular recreational diving I've seen plastic buckles break. A few times on dive boats getting smashed by tanks and then once when some surf smashed a guy against the tank of another diver.

 

[Diving Dubai]

@decompression - Thanks good points

The Buoyant material. Agree ish. Because in the Summer I'm diving a 15l steel generally with a 40cf side slung in a lavacore suit I put on the rear pad for added bouyancy (its's supposed to be neutrally buoyant but is about +2lbs) In the winter and Diving Dry off it comes as do the shoulder pads

Agree about the single webbing harness being comfortable and I don't dislike my old rig (it got retired because it was over weighted with an Al plate and STI)

My injury was a burst disc in my back. Thankfully modern medicine fixed it perfectly, however I do like the hip load distribution with a conventional webbing harness no weight is on the hips.

I didn't know a soft plate was acceptable - I've learnt something - thanks

@tbone1004 Thanks for your input too.

I've never dived Doubles so couldn't comment, as as mentioned above dive a steel single and it works well. its borderline with my drysuit as I'm using 12lbs of lead

Yes I do have the deluxe variant with the sternum strap (dislike that)


@PjcAJ Yes I hear you on the top D-rings, although mine are use with items I want to stow specific to the type of Diving I do where as the bottom two are generally used to clip off my side slings. I'm not saying my gear is perfect but it is configured specifically to the area and situations I dive in.

I still don't buy the fragile plastic argument. We dive on Arabian Dhow's which have no gear holders the gear gets laid on the deck and will roll if the boat does. Now while you try to protect it, bad stuff can happen but I've never had a plastic buckle damaged nor seen any others (some of my group still dive BCD's shock horror!). I have seen a kit roll and the plate puncture the bladder however...

 

[tbone1004]

if you are trying for proper weight distribution at the surface, the chest strap is crucial and without it, you may as well just dive a single piece harness. Go out in cold water, seen plenty break in the cold.

Remember that you are diving, and if you need to carry the gear for an extended period of time, then a dolly may be advantageous or better yet, switching to sidemount due to the back injury