Why Are Wing Comfort Harnesses Frowned Upon?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I guess my first question to the OP is why is it important to you that DIR adhere to your standards? They're a private organization that teaches a specific philosophy. They don't declare, nor pretend, that it should be followed by everyone ... just those who choose to join their organization and follow their practices. How is that different than any other private organization out there? You are free to choose, and dive with, whatever equipment suits your goals and preference. I notice you have DIR Practitioner appellation under your user name. My question to you would be "why?"

These discussions come up from time to time, and their only real purpose ... as in this case ... is to create a controversy where there is none. Sorry, I just don't see a lot of DIR Practitioners ... the real ones ... out there preaching to the masses that they're "doing it wrong" or "gonna die" or any of the other things they're commonly accused of doing. It's a waste of time. Dive however makes you happy ... why should you care what someone else thinks about it?

For what it's worth, I've dived what you call a "comfort harness" ... and in fact, there's one attached to the Nomad sidemount rig I dive today. It's a perfectly functional piece of gear. I also own several backplate/wing systems with standard hogarthian harnesses on them. They work just fine too. I commonly dive with people who have been through various levels of DIR training ... and have been through a Fundamentals class myself. But I don't call myself a "DIR Practitioner" ... because I'm not one. I like to dive solo sometimes. I enjoy trying out different configurations and diving styles. They all have upsides and downsides ... and some are more suitable for some environments, diving styles, preferences than others.

Just go diving ... who really gives a crap what equipment you like, or why you like it? It's just gear. Diving's about having fun ... not obsessing over who approves/disapproves your choices, or why.

Seems to me what this is really all about is you want to claim membership in the club, but without the bother of paying the club dues or observing the club rules. My advice would be go find a club that's more to your liking, and leave those DIR folks to do their own thing in their own way. Nobody's forcing you to do it their way.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

I put this in the Advanced section to allow a more open debate equally I didn't wish to intrude in the Tech section

A recent post from someone with a Dive Rite Transpac wanting to know if it was suitable for a Fundies class (the answer was no) got me to thinking. Why not, indeed why are comfort harnesses on wings frowned upon by some / most?


As it happens I have one. I do have a conventional Harness and BP gathering dust in my garage but prefer my comfort harness for a couple of reasons

The primary one, it that in the summer diving a neutrally buoyant suit and a steel tank, I’m carrying zero weight and still slightly over weighted. So don’t want the additional weight of a plate

I prefer the fact that it places the weight of the tank on my hips on a boat having previously had a back injury

But those are my preferences. Now I’m not trying to say GUE are wrong, their course their rules after all. But I want to know why. Why are comfort harnesses frowned upon, what reasons and what’s the data to back up those reasons?

Before someone chimes in with the “failure points of plastic buckles” line I request you back this up with real world proof rather than some anecdote passed down from your grandmother about your scuba diving hamster etc.

“Because wearing a hog harness and long hose makes me look like a tech diver and buckles and short hose makes me look like a novice” comments also aren’t allowed (unless you can prove it or admit to it)

As a thought before the discussion progresses and something to conside, Many people are happy to use an A clamp which has a greater potential for problems than a Din connector, but no-one calls foul on those. This isn’t a thread about Din vs A Clamp though just an example

So happy to hear comments, to serve an inquisitive mind maybe even to start a reasoned debate. I’m not seeking justification for my choice just wondering why the disapproval from some quarters

But remember my rules say you need to back up your statements with evidence.


Disclaimer – I was in a previous career, a material scientist within aerospace, so metallics, non-metallics, Non Destructive Inspection and stress analysis used to be within my remit – again just to keep opinions honest

Complex harnesses don't add "comfort" over a properly adjusted Hogarthian Harness. They offer the perception of easier donning and doffing. Properly adjusted a hogarthian harness essentially disappears in the water.

Many Jacket / vest BC divers assume they will have to run a Hogarthian Harness cinched as tightly as the jacket BC they have been using. This simply is not true. The typical jacket BC has only fabric between the diver and the cylinder and in a mostly futile effort to keep the tank from flopping around most jacket BC used cinch their harness down "Marty Feldman" tight in an effort to secure the cylinder. This leads them to believe that they could never get into or out of a Hogarthian Harness of similar adjustment. The reality is the typical Hogarthian harness is not worn anywhere nearly as tight. The tank is securely mounted to the plate, and the plate takes the "roll" out of the cylinder. Hog harnesses aren't sloppy loose, but they do not need to be snug.

This is a difficult concept to convey to those who have never used a BP&W, and IMO this fear is what sells most complex harnesses.

The record is replete with accounts of divers starting with complex harnesses and bit by bit removing the added features as they discover they don't need them, often reverting to a simple one piece harness. I know of no diver that went the other way, starting with a simple harness and later opting for the complex harness.

Plastic buckles can break, but IMO that's hugely over blown in terms of risk in the water. A broken buckle may endanger the next dive, but is very unlikely to endanger a diver in the water. If this was true we would be stepping over the bodies at most popular dive sites. When a complex harness fails, broken buckle etc. it almost always requires access to industrial sewing machines to repair it, and these are not all that common on dive boats or at the edge of the spring. Simple harnesses seldom fail and if they do they are easily replaced in the field.

I'd suggest most recommendations to avoid complex harnesses are based on divers that discovered that they are an un necessary expense, although there is an overlay of "your gunna die" that can be traced to some aggressive elitism based marketing.

By all means dive what you prefer, but it's worthwhile to recognize that divers doing multihour penetration dives are typically using Hogarthian Harnesses. If comfort was an issue these guys would surely need it more than folks doing 50 minute reef dives.

Tobin

 

[boulderjohn]

I notice you have DIR Practitioner appellation under your user name. My question to you would be "why?"

I don't think I know what that means any more, and I used to be a pretty straight DIR practitioner myself. In fact, even today you would have to know DIR pretty well to spot my deviations from what I was taught back then.

A few weeks ago I arrived at the boat for a day of diving in the predawn darkness, and I saw a number of people who I did not recognize waiting for the trip while wearing all sorts of clothing with GUE boldly labeled on it. When we got on the boat and started to gear up, I saw blue H's everywhere on their gear. Eventually we chatted, and I learned that they were indeed long time DIR proponents, and knowledgeable ones, too. One was a ScubaBoard veteran with a clear reputation as an advocate of both GUE and DIR. As they prepared to dive, they checked the computers they were using to make sure they were set properly, etc. They were using Shearwaters. Well, when I was in the DIR fold, computers were strictly forbidden. They could only be used as bottom timers in gauge mode. These computers were not in gauge mode, and if you are going to buy a computer solely to use it in gauge mode, you would be an idiot to spend the money for a Shearwater.

I see a lot of people with "DIR Practitioner" under their names advocating positions in various threads that I don't recognize as being DIR, at least as I was taught it.

About -6 years ago I was chatting with some people, all of whom were very much DIR. One of them told of an experience he had talking to a long time diver, an old friend who was doing a number of non-DIR things in his diving. He asked the man why he was doing those non-DIR things, and he said he had moved on and liked his current practices better. But what about standardization, the need to do everything the same? He shrugged that argument off--overrated in importance. That diver's name was Bill Hogarth Main.

 

[Rooster59]

I carry an 11' chunk of 2" webbing in my bag. It already has a hole in the middle. Whatever harness my plate has, anything breaks I can thread in my spare in about 6 minutes.

In a rescue class, I wore a simple harness with no buckles. We all had to think a bit as to how to remove my rig if I was the victim. Scissors was the consensus.

 

[dbulmer]

I guess my first question to the I notice you have DIR Practitioner appellation under your user name. My question to you would be "why?"

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,
The title comes from the Scubaboard upgrade AFAIK and recall seeing the OP wonder why.
I think it's to do with a database query that looks at the groups a user has joined. I'm a DIR practitioner too because at some time in the past I joined the DIR group.

 

[muzikbiz22]

Just go diving ... who really gives a crap what equipment you like, or why you like it? It's just gear. Diving's about having fun ... not obsessing over who approves/disapproves your choices, or why.

Amen. I wish more divers took this heart. I dive for me, and no one else. If I happen to be diving with others of "a different discipline or gear configuration", or I'm on my rebreather diving with a buddy on OC, then we chat about it before we splash. Everyone is briefed, hands are shaken, divers come back from the dive happy, let's head back to port and have a beer.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,
The title comes from the Scubaboard upgrade AFAIK and recall seeing the OP wonder why.
I think it's to do with a database query that looks at the groups a user has joined. I'm a DIR practitioner too because at some time in the past I joined the DIR group.

I dunno about that ... I am a member of the DIR group, and have participated in discussions there from time to time. And my title is "Mental Toss Flycoon" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Plastic buckles can break, but IMO that's hugely over blown in terms of risk in the water. A broken buckle may endanger the next dive, but is very unlikely to endanger a diver in the water. If this was true we would be stepping over the bodies at most popular dive sites. When a complex harness fails, broken buckle etc. it almost always requires access to industrial sewing machines to repair it, and these are not all that common on dive boats or at the edge of the spring. Simple harnesses seldom fail and if they do they are easily replaced in the field.

Broken buckles can be easily fixed in the field with a pair of appropriately-sized zip-ties. Of course, you'll want that buckle replaced as soon as is practical, but it should not prevent you from doing the next dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rongoodman]

A few weeks ago I arrived at the boat for a day of diving in the predawn darkness, and I saw a number of people who I did not recognize waiting for the trip while wearing all sorts of clothing with GUE boldly labeled on it. When we got on the boat and started to gear up, I saw blue H's everywhere on their gear. Eventually we chatted, and I learned that they were indeed long time DIR proponents, and knowledgeable ones, too. One was a ScubaBoard veteran with a clear reputation as an advocate of both GUE and DIR. As they prepared to dive, they checked the computers they were using to make sure they were set properly, etc. They were using Shearwaters. Well, when I was in the DIR fold, computers were strictly forbidden. They could only be used as bottom timers in gauge mode. These computers were not in gauge mode, and if you are going to buy a computer solely to use it in gauge mode, you would be an idiot to spend the money for a Shearwater.

In all fairness, Jablonski's Baker's Dozen article regarding computers is nearly 15 years old by now.

 

[boulderjohn]

I dunno about that ... I am a member of the DIR group, and have participated in discussions there from time to time. And my title is "Mental Toss Flycoon" ...

OK, this is a bit off topic, but let's talk about it a bit, because even I as a moderator am not fully understanding about this topic.

The title under your name depends upon several things. Bob is a supporter, and that earns him the right to have whatever he darn well pleases, including identifying as a dyslexic Frank Zappa groupie. If you join a group, the name of the group is identified, so a person who joins the DIR Practitioner group will have that identification. If you join more than one group, the one that will show is the one that is the highest ranking in a somewhat arbitrary list of rankings. If you do none of the above, you will be identified as some sort of seal life, in another arbitrary ascending order based on the number of posts.

I've got all that; here is what I don't understand. Notice that I am listed as Scuba Media and Publications, the highest ranking of the groups. I never joined that group, and I have no reason to join it. If I were to leave the group, then I supposedly will be named by my next highest ranking group. I would indeed leave the group, if I had the option to do so. Since it does not appear in the group list, I can't un-join it, but then, since it does not appear in the group list, I couldn't have joined it in the first place, could I?