Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?

[starrlamia]

If gear was included as you say , I have NO idea how the facility made any money on the class of 4..figure the total income from the course is $1,200..now minus a decent rate of pay for the instructor for the 28 hours you say it took..28x$16.=$448..now income is $752. Now figure in rent,insurance,electric, staff salary's,advertising ,lets ball park it at $40. per student..so thats $160. more expense to the facility,income now down to $592.You say gear was included so figure that another $110.minimum per student at whole sale cost to facility.Thats another $440. less for facility..Now we are down to $152.for the facility..Now cost of maintaining gear and replacing some periodically,cost of pool if rented or even owned by facility and we have the class COSTING the facility ..Now you wonder why LDS owners get upset if students purchase gear from elsewhere during or after the class..
Real cost of a group class should easily be 2 to 3 times what is currently charged. Especially if If students continue purchasing gear from other than the facility they learned from..

i paid more for my class, but back a bunch of posts someone was saying that they overcharge for scuba classes, I was merely refuting that point (for reference i paid 500 for my class).

 

[nolatom]

I thought my instructors (husband-wife team who owned the shop) were good when I was in OW class, but no real objective way to tell other than recommendations from others who already dive (which I did listen to).

But I *knew* they were good when, on a liveaboard offshore in cranky conditions, "their" divers (from many different classes) were not only the ones staying out of trouble, but also the ones who were able to go to the assistance of those who were.

Now, would I have been willing to pay more for their instruction than that of an "average" instructor? Sure, but you typically don't know the difference in advance, so prices tend to be uniform regardless of ability and talent--kind of like teacher salaries, at least historically. The only thing you can do is to spread the word to potential divers looking for a good instructor who doesn't cut corners. then that instructor will at least get some more potential students, maybe making up in volume what they can't in price-setting?

 

[ed.hamilton1]

I have been working as and instructor since 2011 and allthough it can be difficult to get started there are dive shops who actively seek out newly qualified instructors. I have found that many instructors only stay active for two years however if you work hard get good references and are not looking to buy a ferrari it is possible.

 

[k ellis]

I have been working as and instructor since 2011 and allthough it can be difficult to get started there are dive shops who actively seek out newly qualified instructors. I have found that many instructors only stay active for two years however if you work hard get good references and are not looking to buy a ferrari it is possible.

Thats a big part of the problem. Most people have in mind they are going to teach what they love and they are going to get paid good for it. I have found that most people dont realize what all goes into instructing as well. Like all jobs where you teach people something you are certifying that some one has met a set standard and that they were capable of doing them self sufficiently. Later on there is always the possibility that if they mess up or die then you could be called to court to testify they met all standards.

You also have to take into consideration that there is the issue with buying fuel to and from a dive site, there is cost in hotels if you are not lucky enough to live on site. There is cost included like insurance, there is renewing instructors certification yearly. You have to constantly work to make it profitable which kills the love of the sport you enjoy so much.

I have commented earlier that I do believe the sport should be made affordable for everyone who wants to enjoy it as much as we do. The problem with this is when you factor in all the cost and associated ordeals you would have to have a constant class ratio of 20 students to make it profitable but then you are always going to into the need for a divemaster and the time consuming factor. All in all it may amount to you make after all cost associated 50 dollars a weekend.

There is no happy medium though because if you raise the price to make more money you simply thin down the amount of prospective students (Though there will always be those select people who dont care what a cost is because they can afford it.) As my cousin even remarked he runs a business where he sales a service and was charging $40 a student. No one would take his classes but he dropped it $10 to $30 a student and he has people beating down his walls. Things are tight and people know about what the going price is as most times they do their homework.

They find also that with situations like diving most people come to realize that by doing there research PADI has a set of standards to be met as most other agencies. They only see that all the dive centers representing these agencies have to abide by and teach by the same standards. They view it as (And for the record I DO NOT agree with this) its just swimming under water so if one guy can teach me for x dollars why pay the other guy a larger amount when the end result will be the same.

As mentioned by others earlier on too there is no end objective other then to get some bubbles blowing and see some mind blowing sites. There is no hopes of making it big or getting their names in the scuba hall of fame. All they want is to enjoy life. So there is no need to get the worlds greatest instructor in their eyes they just need one who can show them the ropes and get them a c-card. When it comes to things like horse racing they want to have a winning horse or when it comes to golf they want to play in the PGA. The hopes of accomplishing these are well worth some people paying big money.

It is however something that should be carefully studied by people in any and all trades as this does seem to be a trend thats worming its way into everything in life. People are strapped for cash and will cut any corner to accomplish their goals. And where there is people looking to save money there is always someone qualified to teach that needs to put food on the table so will undersale the competition to put that food on the table. Every time someone undersales the competition it drives the price down a little at a time.

 

[TMHeimer]

k ellis, That all makes sense to me. As I always like to compare scuba to music, I found that when I took a leave from school teaching to try teaching privately I was only able to charge $10 a half hour lesson. This was in an isolated subarctic city where almost all the other private teachers (mostly piano) were wives of men who worked for the mine and made really good bucks--they didn't need the money, so that's all they charged. Whereas many of my fellow musicians in the New York area charged many times that amount (I know it's NY, but still--the cost of living in the northern city was higher). Not really the same as the undercutting you mention, but same ballpark. You can only charged what people will pay, or you get less people (or none).

 

[Doriadiver11]

.................
You also have to take into consideration that there is the issue with buying fuel to and from a dive site, there is cost in hotels if you are not lucky enough to live on site. There is cost included like insurance, there is renewing instructors certification yearly. You have to constantly work to make it profitable which kills the love of the sport you enjoy so much.

I have commented earlier that I do believe the sport should be made affordable for everyone who wants to enjoy it as much as we do. The problem with this is when you factor in all the cost and associated ordeals you would have to have a constant class ratio of 20 students to make it profitable ............................[/QUOTE]



You make valid and some "common-sense points here except for one very important one. Should Ferrarris also me "made affordable for everyone" just because everyone enjoys driving them so much ? A lot of people would "enjoy" flying a private jet.....so should that "be made affordable" for everyone ? Just because people enjoy something, is not a viable economic reason for "making it affordable".... translation: CHEAP.

.................
There is no happy medium though because if you raise the price to make more money you simply thin down the amount of prospective students .............................As mentioned by others earlier on too there is no end objective other then to get some bubbles blowing and see some mind blowing sites. There is no hopes of making it big or getting their names in the scuba hall of fame. All they want is to enjoy life. So there is no need to get the worlds greatest instructor in their eyes they just need one who can show them the ropes and get them a c-card. When it comes to things like horse racing they want to have a winning horse or when it comes to golf they want to play in the PGA. The hopes of accomplishing these are well worth some people paying big money.

......................................

THere is another end objective to learning to dive aside from "blowing bubbles and seeing some mind-blowing sites". ...... That objective is to engage in this sport without killing yourself, due to making some error leading to decompression illness, embolism, or being left at sea from a dive boat.....many incidents of which have occurred due to poorly and inadequately trained people engaging in this sport, after taking a weekend $99 scuba class on-line. nnnnScuba Diving is NOT GOLF, and the instructors who teach diving and certify divers, accept substantial legal liabilty and risk for the students who are under their care and guidance. Teaching SCUBA diving carries a VERY DIFFERENT risk profile than teaching anything else...... like tennis, or golf, or skiiing. A diving student, can die while diving, in any number of different ways related directly to diving skills ....... so then why does everyone believe that the economic models of teaching these different sports are all comparable. THEY ARE NOT, particualarly for reasons you yourself cited in your first paragraph. Sir, you make some excellent points, and reasons for which SCUBA training should NOT be cheap, and then you go on to say that it should be cheap anyway. That makes absolutely no sense. SCUBA training SHOULD indeed be treated with more exclusivity from the pricing-model standpoint. The point being...you can't have your cake and eat it to.

 

[Griff..]

So. I'm a full time dive instructor..

I don't earn good money, I earned a lot better money working in the UK at my previous boring 9-5 job working in a car showroom.
However, I wake up every morning and get to go diving, I get to teach, which for me is a very rewarding thing, with my job, I get a house, a vehicle, petrol paid for too and from work, free dive equipment to use for teaching purposes, access to cheap equipment, free continuing education courses, CCR, Tec etc. Free use of the dive boats and kit on day off etc.

The money I get from my salary goes on food, and pocket money (beer, social events, more personal dive kit)

And this is the life I choose to lead, I lead a simple, stress free life and get to do what I love doing for a living, I understand for some, that this is not a viable choice, but for me, its perfect.. yes occasionally I wish the money was better, but how many people can actually say, they LIKE their job..

 

[Doriadiver11]

I have been working as and instructor since 2011 and allthough it can be difficult to get started there are dive shops who actively seek out newly qualified instructors. I have found that many instructors only stay active for two years however if you work hard get good references and are not looking to buy a ferrari it is possible.

The REAL reason that dive shops seek out "newly qualified instructors", is because they will generally work for free, in return for a store discount and to hopefully have their liability insuance cost covered so they can "stay current". Delivering QUALITY training or bringing years of valuable field experience in order to do so, never enters into it. The ferrari comment is ridiculous and is a "loaded" comment..........as the vast majority of instructors CANNOT earn even a basic poverty-level income from teaching diving; so of course, no one expects to "buy a ferrari", but does that mean that instructors should not then have a reasonable expectation to be paid A FAIR PRICE, for their instructional services at all ? Evidently, the training agencies and the industry as a whole does not seem to think so.

 

[Doriadiver11]

I thought my instructors (husband-wife team who owned the shop) were good when I was in OW class, but no real objective way to tell other than recommendations from others who already dive (which I did listen to).

But I *knew* they were good when, on a liveaboard offshore in cranky conditions, "their" divers (from many different classes) were not only the ones staying out of trouble, but also the ones who were able to go to the assistance of those who were.

Now, would I have been willing to pay more for their instruction than that of an "average" instructor? Sure, but you typically don't know the difference in advance, so prices tend to be uniform regardless of ability and talent--kind of like teacher salaries, at least historically. The only thing you can do is to spread the word to potential divers looking for a good instructor who doesn't cut corners. then that instructor will at least get some more potential students, maybe making up in volume what they can't in price-setting?

It would be nice if the industry worked this way.......but it doesn't. For every "great" instructor like yours, there are at least a dozen that suck; mainly because the training agencies do NOT DIFFERENTIATE any longer, neither between thenselves, nor among the level of ability of their instructors; which is why there is NO BRAND VALUE in training agencies any longer. At the end of the day, a student is extremely LUCKY to get a quality course nowadays, and the caliber of instructor willing to offer that level of quality training for next to no money in return, is dwindling rapidly. The fact the pricing for BRANDED QUALITY TRAINING (at every level of certification) was NOT subject to minimum retail pricing standards, is why the industry has diminished so substantially; and why any teenage high-school dropout that logged 100 dives in his backyard swimming pool and neighborhood quarry can now obtain an instructor certification.

 

[Doriadiver11]

As with so many debates about training on SB the arguments are myopic......................... It's supply and demand. In many of the sports out there that people instruct those that get paid those higher rates are ones that have done very well in competition or coached those that have done well. Golf, horse shows, dirt bikes, martial arts, ect. There is no competition for scuba, it's an activity. Activity instructors generally don't make large sums in any field or instruction. .

You're RIGHT, and what is TRUELY MYOPIC..........is that The whole POINT in discussing QUALIFICATIONS, was only indirectly related to the topic which is the perverse economic model under which diving instruction is currently structured. Your one comment is exactly right, it is DIRECTLY related to supply and demand; and the SUPPLY of instructors, is directly related to the level of qualification AND COST required to obtain the cert....both of which are several orders of magnitude lower than in years past (the cost when adjusted for inflation). This was the main point. That the DUMBING DOWN of ALL diver training, in order to expand the number of divers....as well as the number of instructors; has several unintended economic consequences.....one of which, has been the virtual elimination of a decent standard of pay to THE FEW GOOD INSTRUCTORS out there, because there are so damn many LOUSY ones, most working for nothing as summer-weekend warriors, in return for a gear discount, some free dives, and MAYBE to have their liability insurance subsidized.

Again, you are 100% correct when you say it is primarily "supply and demand" determining training pricing. But when the training agencies PERVERT the dynamics of supply by qualifying virtually anone who can breathe, and write a check to become an instrcutor; the rest of the economic model becomes PERVERSE as well. When those same training agencies further dumb down even entry level training to such a degree, that the only way to deliver an entry level course COST-EFFECTIVELY is ON-LINE over a weekend......then you set an EXPECTATION among the consumer public that dive training is a trivial affair that SHOULD BE CHEAP, since "anyone, even a 10-year old can do it.....anyone can teach it......and you can do it over a weekend". These were my points earlier, in that the training agencies have caved in to the demands of the live-aboard dive-travel, as well as the equipment manufacturer segment of the industry; in order to produce large numbers of divers in as short a time as possible. This transformation mainly occurred during the unprecedented economic growth in the 1990s'; when people started to have more money than sense....and during which the tech-diving craze exploded (in spite of the huge expense for tech-equipment, helium gas, and high cost to access deep wrecks). If you do your histoical research, you'll find that the pricing associated with diver training, EVEN DURING THE 1990's, DID NOT go up in proportion to the demand in terms of numbers of divers (AND INSTRUCTORS) that got certified through the 1990s and into the 2000's. Equipment prices went up. Cost of Dive Travel went up. And what went up even more disproportionately was Instructor Liability Insurance premiums...... The only thing that did NOT go up (and in fact went down substantially when adjusted for inflation), is the price for recreational diver training, at every level (excluding tech-diver training, which is all over the map and is difficult to average.

In summary, you're right it is MYOPIC....but especially so to simply say that prices are a consequence solely of supply and demand, without acknowledging the effect that industry standards, and training agency policies have on Supply.