why enter a cave

[DA Aquamaster]

This is similar to the "Boiling frog theory" that is often taught in ethics classes. The idea is that if you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water it will jump out, but if you put it in cool water and slowly heat the water to boiling, the frog will adjust to the temperature change until it is killed.

A lot of new divers wouldn't enter a cave at a depth of 200 feet using a single tank of air for their first dive after OW, but as TreyR mentioned, they may progressively more risks until they are in a situation that they cannot escape.

Successive approximation and systematic desenitiization are timed honored psychological counseling techniques to shape behavior and help people get over their phobias. It works as you described and involves pushing the comfort zone out a little bit more in successive steps, until the person is now actively doing things that they would not have previously done or would have previously feared doing.

Those things work in a clinical setting because they are natural processes that operate in the real world on real people all the time. It's where the deceptively easy part of cave diving gets untrained divers killed - and in some cases it's where it temps trained cave divers past the limits of their training and/or ability and experience level and gets them killed as well.

In that regard, cave diving rewards a high level of training, planning, self awareness, risk assessment, (accurate and honest) self assessment and self discipline. On the other hand cave diving is potentially both swift and ruthless in it's treatment of divers who are weak in any of the previous areas.

---------- Post Merged at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:10 PM ----------

Given that the danger increases exponentially in a cave so that detailed training is necessary to get out alive (per DA Aquamaster above), what is it that is in there that makes going in and taking all the added risk worth the danger? Isn't it just common sense to keep out since even with detailed training, very dangerous situations will happen? Of course it is better to be trained for the dangers than not. But trained people in other pursuits know to avoid dangerous situations unless going in is necessary. Recreational diving is "recreational". Hence I repeat, what is so much better to see in caves that makes the risk worthwhile in a recreational activity?

I think you are mis interpreting the risks.

One of the attractions I have to cave diving is that it is a very controlled environment. Prior to cave diving, I was a wreck diver and that I felt was far riskier. On any given dive, the viz could go bad either underwater or above, the boat could come loose from the wreck, the current could pick up, bull sharks could show up while you are mid water with 45 minutes of deco left with some moronic shark fisherman chumming the water up current of you, the wreck could be unstable and collapse, the seas could go from 3-4 ft to 6-8 ft, etc, etc, etc.

In contrast conditions in caves are generally fairly stable over the course of the dive with the major change potentially being visibility, and that's often either something you can control (silting a small side mount tunnel etc) and/or something that occurs in a localized area. And it's the focal point of nearly all your training as much of cave training is done in total darkness to train you to deal with emergencies and exit safely absent any visual references.

In that regard, I find cave diving to be incredibly relaxing and I find it to be very appealing in terms of the level of control I have compared to any part of the rest of my day or life in general.

It's also very much a "controlled risk" sport, where you as the diver decide what risks to take and what magnitude of risk is acceptable. I open water diving, those risks are often set by powers and forces of nature beyond your control and can change drastically during the dive.

 

[Cave Diver]

This "thinking" has almost killed two people in the last three weeks? Are you sure there are no other factors you are omitting?

I was there once. Brand new OW diver with mostly a few local lake dives under my weight belt. Went on a trip to Mexico with my LDS and a bunch of much more experienced divers. Following their lead, I went on a 200' dive, a night dive on a recently sunk artificial wreck in a ripping current, and 4 of us snuck off and did a cave dive. I didn't think it was any big deal at the time. We didn't go that far into the cave. We could mostly see daylight from where we went, although not the opening itself. We could see our buddies, although we didn't really have an assigned buddy (it was pretty much a group dive) and none of us were close enough to each other to really assist quickly if something had gone wrong.

No big deal. We all managed to make it out in one piece. Although we did end up having to do a surface swim back to our entry point because none of us had enough air to complete the dive underwater. Oh, and one person end up dropping his only light and was unable to find it, and had to share the only light one of the other guys brought (I'm pretty sure none of us had more than one with us). Oh yeah, and there was one gear failure of a BCD as well. Still, no big deal. we made it out. Who the hell needs all that extra training and gear anyway?? I mean, if a brand new OW diver with probably about 20 dives could do it, what could be so hard?

Looking back on some of those early escapades, with years of experience, training and 100's of dives it still kind of gives me chills to think about my stupidity and trusting that nothing would go wrong. Four Italians die in a cave? The headlines 12 years ago could just as easily have read "4 Americans die in cave."

If you're not cave trained and you think this keeps you safe:

My personal line in the sand (usually) is turning around before the light goes out behind me. This is usually not far past the reaper.

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE think again and quit doing this, or get some training!

I have never met a diver with overhead training that thinks it's safe to dive in an overhead without the training, but I've met (and been!) plenty of OW divers who think it's no big deal. That should tell people something...

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

This "thinking" has almost killed two people in the last three weeks? Are you sure there are no other factors you are omitting?

One is dead, that isn't an ALMOST. I omitted its stupid, arrogant and selfish to do that to your family. You dont know what you dont know. Act like you do all you want.

 

[SkimFisher]

Here is a twist of the topic. Why do cave divers dive Caves? Many say to explore the unknown.. I say not so because they dive the same cave the same route over and over and over. Of course there are some amazing places with huge caverns but mostly they are habit trails and I think it is just them playing on the jungle gym with new toys and skills then sitting around and talking about it afterwards.

I still prefer the ocean and/or even wreck diving because literally anything could be in there. Wreck diving of course requires cave skills but much much more fun than wet rocks IMO --

Sounds like a huge chip on your shoulder. Did someone not let you in the clubhouse, or does your DM rating over-qualify you for a cave course?

 

[Superlyte27]

I cant wait to get to a computer to give this the proper response it deserves.

 

[nimoh]

Here is a twist of the topic. Why do cave divers dive Caves?

because otherwise they wouldn't be cave divers...sorry, couldn't resist

 

[TSandM]

I think the reason people take training to learn to dive is because going from someone walking upright in air, to being someone breathing underwater on scuba, is a big step, and some of it may not be obvious at all. A regular and BC and tank and snorkel and mask and fins looks like a lot of stuff to manage, and people recognize that they may need some help learning to handle it all.

On the other hand, diving is diving. Whether you are swimming around in 20 feet of water on a Caribbean reef, or 200 feet of water on a Puget Sound wreck, or 90 minutes back in a Mexican cave, you're still breathing off a regulator, managing neutral buoyancy, and propelling yourself with your fins. There's no "quantum leap" like there is from land to water, in going from shallow open water to deep water or overheads. If I can swim in 20 feet of water, I can swim in 200, and I can swim in a cave . . . The considerations that make those other environments dangerous enough to require further training may not be obvious, and they obviously aren't scary enough at all.

I know I swam into a cave when I was a pretty novice diver. It was a sea cave, and the guide had briefed me that it was about 20 feet long, with no branches, and big enough to turn around in any any point. I thought that sounded pretty benign, and it was. But there you have it -- I did kind of what we're condemning others for doing. The difference is that I did ask about branches and size and length before I went in, and I would NOT have gone in had I not gotten the answers I needed for all of those questions.

The lure of an unknown space in front of you is, for some of us, virtually irresistible.

 

[robbcayman]

Personally, I don't see the appeal in it. I guess there are a few caves with some things to see, but most caves people enter are dark and filled with rocks. Maybe it's saying they did it or going so deep inside of one. To me, diving is its best on a healthy tropical reef with plenty of marine life. Oh well.. to each their own.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I always figured cave diving was a great excuse to buy all sorts of new gear. Where else can you spend $700 on the coolest, brightest flash light and tell your wife its life support gear, and that's just the start

If you think cave diving's expensive, try golf ... or horseback riding ... or buy a boat ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post Merged at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:56 PM ----------

Personally, I don't see the appeal in it. I guess there are a few caves with some things to see, but most caves people enter are dark and filled with rocks. Maybe it's saying they did it or going so deep inside of one. To me, diving is its best on a healthy tropical reef with plenty of marine life. Oh well.. to each their own.

I think the appeal varies with the individual. For me ... because I live so far from caves ... it's something new and different to experience. But yes, by definition caves are dark and filled with rocks. And like yourself I'm into marine life ... but I also love diving in some other environments that don't appeal to most folks ... cold water, for example.

To each their own. The issue isn't what different people find appealing, it's how much effort you're willing to put into mitigating the risks associated with satisfying that appeal ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Superlyte27]

My personal line in the sand (usually) is turning around before the light goes out behind me. This is usually not far past the reaper.

That's exactly what has killed some people. The light behind you can go out in a flash, and then you're screwed. And this can happen prior to reaching the reaper. The reaper isn't always in the best spot. Ever been to Madison Blue? The reaper is quite far from natural light, smack dab in the middle of 2' of nice fluffy silt.

I'm not here to condemn but to try and convey some wisdom that I've found the hard way. I've done exactly the same thing and got lucky to be alive. We want you to be alive a long time too.

---------- Post Merged at 06:23 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Here is a twist of the topic. Why do cave divers dive Caves? Many say to explore the unknown.. I say not so because they dive the same cave the same route over and over and over. Of course there are some amazing places with huge caverns but mostly they are habit trails and I think it is just them playing on the jungle gym with new toys and skills then sitting around and talking about it afterwards.

I still prefer the ocean and/or even wreck diving because literally anything could be in there. Wreck diving of course requires cave skills but much much more fun than wet rocks IMO --

This reminds me of the Bible. You can read it 100 times, and each time get something completely different out of it. I've dove Little River cave easily 200 times. I've been diving it more than a decade and I still see new fascinating things that I've never seen before. I've got nearly that many dives at Ginnie Springs and I've not even scratched the surface of what's to see. I only just looked at the Whale Bone for the first time ever. There's 10's of thousands of feet of passage. I've seen only a small percentage. And these are only two caves. There's are hundreds in my area.

As far as wet rocks go... Yah, it's not much more than looking at the grand canyon. It's just a crack in the earth. Who cares. It's rock, with a stream running through it, big deal. Why would anyone want to go see that, let alone swim through something that looks just like it. I'm really not sure why anyone would find this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE2ppV7hx24&feature=player_embedded enjoyable. I hope you guys caught my sarcasm.

---------- Post Merged at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:19 PM ----------

I think it is like Rock Climbing. They like the knots and the ropes and the gear and just achieving the summit with the rock climbing skills they learned. Rock climbers will say "for the awesome view from the summit" if that were entirely true they'd save money and time by hiring a helio to fly them there. IT has to be a factor for work and achievement.

In the beginning, I wanted to be a cave diver because I believed it was the next escalation of my skills and the pinnacle of diving. And in my early 20's I was a thrill seeker. I liked getting the deepest, farthest, longest, blah blah blah. Today, it's one of the few places I can relax. I'm surrounded by God's creation. I'm not thinking about bills, work, the bad alternator on the car, or my co-workers. It's blissful, peaceful, beautiful and unique. And, it's secluded and unmarred. There's not 100 other people doing it. It's just me, maybe a buddy and my bubbles (until next week, then no bubbles )

---------- Post Merged at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Given that the danger increases exponentially in a cave so that detailed training is necessary to get out alive (per DA Aquamaster above), what is it that is in there that makes going in and taking all the added risk worth the danger? Isn't it just common sense to keep out since even with detailed training, very dangerous situations will happen? Of course it is better to be trained for the dangers than not. But trained people in other pursuits know to avoid dangerous situations unless going in is necessary. Recreational diving is "recreational". Hence I repeat, what is so much better to see in caves that makes the risk worthwhile in a recreational activity?

Fully trained cave divers with more than a few cave dives would argue that it's no more dangerous than driving to work. We (most agencies) have 5 rules of cave diving. It's pretty widely accepted that if you obey those rules, you get to live. I never go into a cave thinking that I might die, because I know that I'm going to obey the rules. Barring an act of God or a heart attack or other medical issue, I'm certain that i'll come out unscathed every time. But I vigilantly guard against complacency (I believe the number 1 killer in caves) and I follow the rules.

---------- Post Merged at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:19 PM ----------

I always figured cave diving was a great excuse to buy all sorts of new gear. Where else can you spend $700 on the coolest, brightest flash light and tell your wife its life support gear, and that's just the start

Man, don't tell my wife you can get lights as cheap as $700. I'll have a hard time explaining this 35w HID.

---------- Post Merged at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:19 PM ----------

I think you are mis interpreting the risks.

One of the attractions I have to cave diving is that it is a very controlled environment. Prior to cave diving, I was a wreck diver and that I felt was far riskier. On any given dive, the viz could go bad either underwater or above, the boat could come loose from the wreck, the current could pick up, bull sharks could show up while you are mid water with 45 minutes of deco left with some moronic shark fisherman chumming the water up current of you, the wreck could be unstable and collapse, the seas could go from 3-4 ft to 6-8 ft, etc, etc, etc.

In contrast conditions in caves are generally fairly stable over the course of the dive with the major change potentially being visibility, and that's often either something you can control (silting a small side mount tunnel etc) and/or something that occurs in a localized area. And it's the focal point of nearly all your training as much of cave training is done in total darkness to train you to deal with emergencies and exit safely absent any visual references.

In that regard, I find cave diving to be incredibly relaxing and I find it to be very appealing in terms of the level of control I have compared to any part of the rest of my day or life in general.

It's also very much a "controlled risk" sport, where you as the diver decide what risks to take and what magnitude of risk is acceptable. I open water diving, those risks are often set by powers and forces of nature beyond your control and can change drastically during the dive.

You guys know how I hate to agree with DA, but this time I must.
He is absolutely right on each point here. I watched a cave diver on the Speigel Grove last month jump off the boat without fins in his hand and didn't grab the tagline when he did so. Any idea what happens when someone does that? He drifts away very quickly. LOL. That was a fun rescue.

---------- Post Merged at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Sounds like a huge chip on your shoulder. Did someone not let you in the clubhouse, or does your DM rating over-qualify you for a cave course?

I'm not sure I interpreted it as a huge chip, but I did sense some animosity there. I'm guessing finances or skill are limiting his exposure. If so, get with me, I'll work out an easy payment plan.