Al Hornsby Resigns

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I have no problem with people accepting them. I would have a problem getting into an agreement for my business. I am not IN the LDS business, but I have seen too many people break the rules with impunity, but then see others get slapped.

It's backward thinking in this market. A SMART manufacturer would not put these types of roadblocks up for commerce.

Interestingly, MAP and MARP are the products of a free market. If the market doesn't like them, both MAP and MARP will disappear of their own accord, to be replaced by more favorable options. Government intervention "on behalf of retailers" to end MAP and MARP is actually disrupting the free market by dictating what goods can and cannot be sold for. After all, retailers and manufacturers enter freely into contractual agreements to adhere to MAP and MARP, without any intervention from the government.
 
I thought the idea of MAP was to protect the LDS from the bigger sellers that get better prices and then sell cheaper thus hurting the smaller guy.
 
Independent Instructors also hurt the sport as they degrade the historic base of the industry - the LDS.


3. Manufacturers must eliminate MARP and MAP pricing. MARP because it is outright illegal price fixing and MAP because it allows the industry to advertise great prices - which in turn will lure more divers to the sport. It will make and allow dive shops to compete on price.
4. Along with the previous, manufacturers must be willing to put in the extra effort required to pack and ship items to all of their dealers at the same prices they sell it to the wholesalers for. Without this, the whole enchilada falls apart.
5. *Retailers must offer quality instruction and competitive pricing. If you price gouge - you deserve to be shut down. Perhaps even by the industry itself. Those caught inflating prices could be shut down either by the training agency pulling their affiliation - or better yet by the manufacturers who cut them off.

*This one needs some clarification. - A new meaning for MARP. Instead of "Minimum Allowed Retail Price" - It should be a Maximum Allowed Retail Price from Manufacturers. There are stores in my area that for years were selling fins with an MSRP of $90 for $125. The advent of the internet brought the same fins online for $69. The LDS started to struggle to sell their fins because they're poorly managed. For god sakes, they were already over the MSRP by $35 and telling people they shouldn't buy online. This was happening all across the country - leading to a lot of pissed off disenchanted scuba divers. So now, the manufacturer will sell to dealers who agree not to sell above the MARP... of $90.00 and allow competition below this price point to fall where it may.

6. Another key to this is the elimination of tiered pricing discounts based on buying volume to two basic levels - and having those levels not so far apart. Given the above fin example... if the fin wholesales in volume of say 100 pair or more to wholesalers for $30.00 a pair... then it should be available to all dealers for $35 a pair. The LDS then can effectively compete. This is another crucial point the manufacturers must adopt. $5 volume buying discount per piece maximum.
The big online sellers won't like it - but then they can shut down to if they want to!

Once we fix the wholesale pricing to the dealer network... readjust the training back to a recreational limit level and require Instructors to be shop affiliated - the industry will begin to fix itself...

I have more - but that is enough for now. Go ahead and pick it apart...[/QUOTE]



Wow the whole time he is b@@@hing about the manufacturer setting prices and now he wants to set them on the Manufacturer and take away retailer incentives....He needs to get his story straight....I'd really be interested in hearing about the degrading of the historic base by the independent instructor....30 years ago all I could find were independent instructors to learn from...Closest dive shop was a three hour drive...All of his rants just result in fewer options for the consumer...sheesh
 
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I have no problem with people accepting them. I would have a problem getting into an agreement for my business. I am not IN the LDS business, but I have seen too many people break the rules with impunity, but then see others get slapped.

It's backward thinking in this market. A SMART manufacturer would not put these types of roadblocks up for commerce.



Pete, why are they road blocks?
It's funny but it seems the most successful of the manufacturers and the ones people want are the ones that have these programs. Most of the people complaining about them are the people who can't follow the programs and get into trouble. I don't see APPLE reducing their computers in thismarket or Pepsi reducing its prices(they just went up where I live. Or Microsoft cutting the price of Windows 7. My Favorite Nike shoes weren't discounted lately.Seems the smart people grow with these types of programs.
 
Independent Instructors also hurt the sport as they degrade the historic base of the industry - the LDS.

Here are the answers to fixing the Industry... from all fronts:
1. Require all Instructors who are within an RSTC agency to be shop affiliated. No more independent Instructors.

This sounds like a great idea, but what about people like myself - an ambitious marketer, a high-standards instructor and someone who is insanely passionate about this sport - who have incredibly hard times affiliating after a move to a different city because LDS owners feel threatened and think I just want to open my own LDS? If they won't provide a home for me, perhaps I should open my own LDS and put them out of business. To blame the independent and use words like "require" just simply won't work.
 
Dear Members of the Board of Directors:


As a member of DEMA I erge you not to accept the resignation of Al Hornsby.

The documents presented to members of industry were one sided documents, no where did anyone have the opportunity to provide support for DEMA it was 100% negative. Those involved spent much time and resources to put this forth on a time line which has negatively impacted our industry. .

This stunt which impacts our industry is wrong.

In a time when we should be focussed on things that matter in the business of diving we are again engulfed in unfounded attacks from people that just do not want to accept there is a process in place at DEMA that supports all members equally, that money cannot be allocated just becasue and especially without accountability!

I erge you not to accept a resignation based on a planned attempt to upset and disrupt this years DEMA program.
Sincerely.
Carl Vincenti
DEMA Member
 
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I'm on Bermuda and I didn't think that I'd be logging into message boards, but there is a small craft advisory today and the dive center canceled today's dives.

On the way here, I met a flight attendant who is a recreational diver living in Scranton, Pennsylvania. She's done a lot of diving in places like the Galapagos, the Red Sea, and the Pacific Rim. She was surprised to find out that you could scuba dive off Bermuda and more surprised that you could dive in Pennsylvania. I told her about the sea and inland caves of Bermuda, the shipwrecks, and about Dutch Springs, local diving, and my recent dives on the Jodrey in the St. Lawrence. She was amazed that such things existed within driving distance of her home.

I wanted to dive with Triangle Diving on Bermuda. After the initial E-mail inquiry about the technical diving available on the island, which really wasn't defined as to what they were offering, despite ads in Wreck Diver magazine, I never heard back from them. I couldn't leave any voice messages, because their mailbox was full. I came set up for recreational diving only with Halcyon single tank system. The trainer at the hotel gym said they are great at Triangle, but so laid back that they are bad about returning calls. She said if I go there and tell them I didn't bring a doubles system, they'll probably let me use their stuff and take me diving for free because they are such cool people.

The PADI shop through which I'm going to dive at the hotel (because of the convenience) doesn't allow shore diving. I was told it is illegal to rent tanks to individuals on the islands, that all dives must be guided, and it would be boring to shore dive anyway.

The one bright shining light is this kid named Matt at Fantasea Diving. He went all out on the phone helping to put me in touch with people at Bios for possible doubles, help with my graduate projects, figuring out transportation, letting me know there was a dive center at my hotel, and giving me more help and info than any dive center has anywhere. The only reason I'm not diving with him is because their operation isn't going out due to low numbers of passengers on the cruise ship.

The above situations were all just 24 hours in the life of a certified scuba diver.

Why would a flight attendant who is a certified diver not know that you could dive in Bermuda - a country whose airport is is serviced by her own airline? Why doesn't she know that you can dive locally and in an area that is the HQ of a major training agency?

One of the reasons is that the industry has made it very difficult for local dive centers to have a voice. I remember how annoyed I was that Skin Diver magazine removed the local diving directory and only had resort contact information listed. As a teen, my friends and I would call dive centers in surrounding states from that guide and go exploring. I fell in love with Rhode Island, Maine, and New York/New Jersey diving due to a major dive magazine making advertising available. Now, even places like Bermuda where Teddy Tucker found Spanish gold are losing diving dollars because they aren't a true dive destination. I think DEMA can take a huge bit of blame for the current industry marketing model and the labyrinth local dive business need to navigate to keep from sinking.

Why would a dive center that is advertising technical diving, not be able to tell a customer what kind of technical diving they do? Or, make getting in touch with them so difficult?

Whatever the reasons, when a diving business operates unprofessionally - not unsafely, but unprofessionally, compared to other businesses that advertise their products and services, it hurts both the local economy and the sport as a whole. When people become turned off by an operator, store, instructor, or manufacturer, they may spend money elsewhere, thereby hurting the local economy, quit diving, or stop being the patron of a dive center that sells a company's product line if a company doesn't provide courteous and prompt customer service.

Why would a dive instructor not support shore diving in an area known for decent snorkeling? Either she is really right and the diving would suck, or her mentality has been warped by the industry. I just had fun practicing my reel work in a swimming hole of a stream right near by home in 3 feet of water. The flow of the stream was like that of a cave, with difficult tie off points due to smooth stone in the creek bed, and there were lots of trout, suckers and minnows to watch, as well as a beaver dam. Days later, I was filming a GUE Fundies class then diving at 160 feet on trimix on the Jodrey. Diving is fun! I was telling her I still have fun in the pool. My girlfriend, who professionally crewed sailboats, can't believe the hotel op isn't going out today. It would be a little bumpy at times, but she was looking at 2 - 3 foot seas for the most part. Diving is no longer for the adventurer. The industry needs to change that perception from DEMA to the agencies to the instructors to the divers to the public. Also, there was no way I could get in for a shore dive. My array of C-cards and my willingness to hire a guide, weren't good enough to let me blow bubbles. She was obviously policing her territory in the most well-meaning way, I'm sure. She probably thought I was just as crazy for wanting to shore dive as a NJ dive center would be if a kid came in and wanted to go dive the Andrea Doria with an 80 cu.ft. cylinder and a 3mm.

Why is it that when diving was flourishing in the days of Sea Hunt, divers bought SCUBA from the same place they could get their golf clubs? Now, with local dive centers acting as the scuba police, people are turned off. Dive centers need to take a look at how other sporting goods stores operate. I just was sold a pair of Julbo sunglasses by an incredibly experienced Himalayas climber in a climbing store with ZERO attitude.

And ... with dwindling interest because of many problems in diving ... there is no one to get on the Fantasea boats so I can go diving with a cool guy like Matt.

There is no one person to blame. It's collective. But, if DEMA is supposed to be "our" voice, DEMA isn't listening to the divers, instructors (affiliated or independent), or the local dive centers - unless local for you is the Galapagos.

DEMA has been about special interest for too long. If Al's decision to leave leads others to follow, then perhaps the industry will be better off. I'd rather the industry become a technical agency model anyway. Better information, training and gear to lead the way.
 
Dear Members of the Board of Directors:


As a member of DEMA I erge you not to accept the resignation of Al Hornsby.

The documents presented to members of industry were one sided documents, no where did anyone have the opportunity to provide support for DEMA it was 100% negative. Those involved spent much time and resources to put this forth on a time line which has negatively impacted our industry. .

This stunt which impacts our industry is wrong.

In a time when we should be focussed on things that matter in the business of diving we are again engulfed in unfounded attacks from people that just do not want to accept there is a process in place at DEMA that supports all members equally, that money cannot be allocated just becasue and especially without accountability!

I erge you not to accept a resignation based on a planned attempt to upset and disrupt this years DEMA program.
Sincerely.
Carl Vincenti
DEMA Member

At the heart of the membership's discontent is the manner in which DEMA funds are spent. The Delta Airlines Video is only part of the problem.

The Be a Diver coop program is "old media"

Anybody else notice that "this stunt" which at least succeeded in getting the attention of DEMA and motivated one BOD member to tender his resignation exists almost entirely on a social networking site, i.e. "new media" the very thing DEMA can't seem to grasp.

Any irony in that?

Tobin
 
I'm on Bermuda and I didn't think that I'd be logging into message boards, but there is a small craft advisory today and the dive center canceled today's dives.

On the way here, I met a flight attendant who is a recreational diver living in Scranton, Pennsylvania. She's done a lot of diving in places like the Galapagos, the Red Sea, and the Pacific Rim. She was surprised to find out that you could scuba dive off Bermuda and more surprised that you could dive in Pennsylvania. I told her about the sea and inland caves of Bermuda, the shipwrecks, and about Dutch Springs, local diving, and my recent dives on the Jodrey in the St. Lawrence. She was amazed that such things existed within driving distance of her home.

I wanted to dive with Triangle Diving on Bermuda. After the initial E-mail inquiry about the technical diving available on the island, which really wasn't defined as to what they were offering, despite ads in Wreck Diver magazine, I never heard back from them. I couldn't leave any voice messages, because their mailbox was full. I came set up for recreational diving only with Halcyon single tank system. The trainer at the hotel gym said they are great at Triangle, but so laid back that they are bad about returning calls. She said if I go there and tell them I didn't bring a doubles system, they'll probably let me use their stuff and take me diving for free because they are such cool people.

The PADI shop through which I'm going to dive at the hotel (because of the convenience) doesn't allow shore diving. I was told it is illegal to rent tanks to individuals on the islands, that all dives must be guided, and it would be boring to shore dive anyway.

The one bright shining light is this kid named Matt at Fantasea Diving. He went all out on the phone helping to put me in touch with people at Bios for possible doubles, help with my graduate projects, figuring out transportation, letting me know there was a dive center at my hotel, and giving me more help and info than any dive center has anywhere. The only reason I'm not diving with him is because their operation isn't going out due to low numbers of passengers on the cruise ship.

The above situations were all just 24 hours in the life of a certified scuba diver.

Why would a flight attendant who is a certified diver not know that you could dive in Bermuda - a country whose airport is is serviced by her own airline? Why doesn't she know that you can dive locally and in an area that is the HQ of a major training agency?

One of the reasons is that the industry has made it very difficult for local dive centers to have a voice. I remember how annoyed I was that Skin Diver magazine removed the local diving directory and only had resort contact information listed. As a teen, my friends and I would call dive centers in surrounding states from that guide and go exploring. I fell in love with Rhode Island, Maine, and New York/New Jersey diving due to a major dive magazine making advertising available. Now, even places like Bermuda where Teddy Tucker found Spanish gold are losing diving dollars because they aren't a true dive destination. I think DEMA can take a huge bit of blame for the current industry marketing model and the labyrinth local dive business need to navigate to keep from sinking.

Why would a dive center that is advertising technical diving, not be able to tell a customer what kind of technical diving they do? Or, make getting in touch with them so difficult?

Whatever the reasons, when a diving business operates unprofessionally - not unsafely, but unprofessionally, compared to other businesses that advertise their products and services, it hurts both the local economy and the sport as a whole. When people become turned off by an operator, store, instructor, or manufacturer, they may spend money elsewhere, thereby hurting the local economy, quit diving, or stop being the patron of a dive center that sells a company's product line if a company doesn't provide courteous and prompt customer service.

Why would a dive instructor not support shore diving in an area known for decent snorkeling? Either she is really right and the diving would suck, or her mentality has been warped by the industry. I just had fun practicing my reel work in a swimming hole of a stream right near by home in 3 feet of water. The flow of the stream was like that of a cave, with difficult tie off points due to smooth stone in the creek bed, and there were lots of trout, suckers and minnows to watch, as well as a beaver dam. Days later, I was filming a GUE Fundies class then diving at 160 feet on trimix on the Jodrey. Diving is fun! I was telling her I still have fun in the pool. My girlfriend, who professionally crewed sailboats, can't believe the hotel op isn't going out today. It would be a little bumpy at times, but she was looking at 2 - 3 foot seas for the most part. Diving is no longer for the adventurer. The industry needs to change that perception from DEMA to the agencies to the instructors to the divers to the public. Also, there was no way I could get in for a shore dive. My array of C-cards and my willingness to hire a guide, weren't good enough to let me blow bubbles. She was obviously policing her territory in the most well-meaning way, I'm sure. She probably thought I was just as crazy for wanting to shore dive as a NJ dive center would be if a kid came in and wanted to go dive the Andrea Doria with an 80 cu.ft. cylinder and a 3mm.

Why is it that when diving was flourishing in the days of Sea Hunt, divers bought SCUBA from the same place they could get their golf clubs? Now, with local dive centers acting as the scuba police, people are turned off. Dive centers need to take a look at how other sporting goods stores operate. I just was sold a pair of Julbo sunglasses by an incredibly experienced Himalayas climber in a climbing store with ZERO attitude.

And ... with dwindling interest because of many problems in diving ... there is no one to get on the Fantasea boats so I can go diving with a cool guy like Matt.

There is no one person to blame. It's collective. But, if DEMA is supposed to be "our" voice, DEMA isn't listening to the divers, instructors (affiliated or independent), or the local dive centers - unless local for you is the Galapagos.

DEMA has been about special interest for too long. If Al's decision to leave leads others to follow, then perhaps the industry will be better off. I'd rather the industry become a technical agency model anyway. Better information, training and gear to lead the way.

Trace, don'ttake this the wrongway but i hope you get weathered in more often. That was a beautiful expression of what local diving really means to us...it IS diving and by virtue the industry.
 

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