The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Crush]

The bottom line is these entry level classes are marketed as being the equivalent of other agencies' entry level classes.

Disclaimer: I make no claims as to whether or not one should make deep dives, what constitutes a deep dive, or the experience level recommended for such dives.

I have a personal anecdote about "equivalencies." With ACUC, the day I completed my last certification dive I was allowed to dive no deeper than 25 meters (80 feet). After 20 dives or 10 hours my limit would automatically become the recreational limit of 40 meters (130 feet) with no additional certification necessary. Some of my first post-certification dives were with a PADI shop in the UK. They had not heard of ACUC, but after researching it they determined that I would be allowed to dive no deeper than the PADI Open Water Diver certification limit of 18 meters (60 feet). This didn't really cramp my style, but it was interesting to me that they chose to impose PADI standards on me even though ACUC standards were valid, but different. A quick look at PADI's website indicates that someone certified through their Deep Diver course would only be certified to 30 meters (100 feet).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The reason for the comment is that for the vast, vast majority of divers out there, they will never be more than the very occasional warm water vacation divers diving with dive centers and operators who provide an instructor or DM in the water weather you want one or not. To learn how to dive in the North Atlantic is more than overkill.

So if PADI's intended market is the warm-water vacation diver only, why are there 5-Star PADI Centers in cold-water locations such as the Northeast USA, Northern California, Seattle, and British Columbia?

If it's as you say, then PADI should restrict their training to those warm-water vacation locations where their training is appropriate to the diving conditions.

Honestly, I wonder why you don't see the logic disconnect between what you're claiming as PADI's product offering and what they are actually doing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mdb]

This thread, with posts by active and experienced instructors, has been very informative.

It has been about 8 years since I last took a specialty SCUBA course. I took the course with my oldest son. We did shore dives off the North Coast of California. I wanted Nick to learn Rocky entry and rough water exits. It was fun. Our instructor was certifying PADI. He did a very good job; we had great dives and a good experience.

The choice of instructor does make a huge difference. I also acknowledge that standards are a big part of the equation.

Glad this thread has stayed alive in basic SCUBA. New divers or folks seeking information on learning to dive will hear from some of our resident experts. This is good for all.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Dang! Meet with new students and miss all kinds of stuff. Where to start? How about the statement that shops bring students. That may be true in many areas but at the shop I work WITH not for the 6 instructors get their own students. If someone calls looking for lessons they are referred to one of us depending on what they are looking for, who is available, and where they are from. From that point on everything is in the hands of the instructor. Scheduling, how long the class lasts, what agency the cert is issued through, etc. The instructor decides when the class is over, who gets a cert, etc. The shop does not certify students, we do. This is one of the many reasons I did not go on to instructor through the agency I came up with.

Their insistence that the shop comes first. That instruction should include hawking gear and more courses (including ones that should have been covered in OW), getting as many certs thru as possible with the shop getting some or all of the credit for them, and promoting exotic expensive places over local diving. All the materials are geared towards driving people away from local spots. If you look at the candidates for the agency spot on the DEMA board two clearly want to see it more involved in training. One openly states that the focus should be on shops and RESORTS! WHY? The focus on resorts is one reason shops are closing. IMO a big one. Resort divers don't need air fills at their local shop, they don't buy dry suits or multiple regs, they don't take as many continuing education courses to further their skills and knowledge, and they sure as hell don't support the local economy by hitting the restaurant next to the local shop, quarry, or lake.

Yet we are supposed to believe that these people are the future of diving? God help us if they are. Those needing to dive with guides and other pros so they don't kill themselves are the ones who are supposed to keep the local shop afloat? I don't think so. If anything the focus of the entire industry, and sorry I don't see resorts as a part of it in this respect, needs to be taken off resorts and put on more comprehensive training, promoting local diving, and greater support of the traditional base of dive training- the independent instructor who is doing this because he/she does not want it to be like an assembly line. Who wants to put divers in the water that do not need their hands held or tear up the reef. Ones who look at a guide or DM and say I don't give a rats butt if you do this all the time. This dive is not safe for everyone on this boat. We go to another site or you refund our money. Shops should stick to selling gear. Let the instructors teach and decide who gets a card and how long it will take. I am glad I teach for an agency that realizes this and gives us the support and respect we deserve.

To focus on resorts and fast training when so many shops are closing and ignore local divers and the very real benefit to the industry and the local economy is a clear indication of what the underlying goal is. Money. Fast, easy, and at what expense?

 

[Kingpatzer]

So if PADI's intended market is the warm-water vacation diver only

No, but primarily.

why are there 5-Star PADI Centers in cold-water locations such as the Northeast USA, Northern California, Seattle, and British Columbia?

The 5-star designator is something that is effectively purchased and comes with the agreement to teach nothing but PADI courses. It's marketing more than anything else.

And there the reason you see PADI shops surviving in cold water destinations is largely about doing certifications for divers who are going on vacation. Serving the needs of the regular local divers is a great side business, but there aren't enough of them around here to keep all of the shops that are here open. If all we served were local divers, probably 2/3rds of the shops here would close.

Indeed, with the recent downturn, we're definitely seeing less competition as a few around the state have closed.

I don't think we've had a class yet this year that wasn't entirely filled with people going on vacation with the exception of the ice diving course. At the ice diving class we had at least as many instructors, ai's and DM's who were there to get in some dives than we had students.

If it's as you say, then PADI should restrict their training to those warm-water vacation locations where their training is appropriate to the diving conditions.

PADI standards are sufficient for diving in entry level conditions. I've only seen the N.Atlantic once, but I wouldn't classify what I saw as entry level.

Honestly, I wonder why you don't see the logic disconnect between what you're claiming as PADI's product offering and what they are actually doing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't see PADI as perfect. I do see them as providing a good enough program when presented by an instructor who is doing their best to produce as good a diver as they can under the constraints they are handed.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No, but primarily.

The 5-star designator is something that is effectively purchased and comes with the agreement to teach nothing but PADI courses. It's marketing more than anything else.

And there the reason you see PADI shops surviving in cold water destinations is largely about doing certifications for divers who are going on vacation. Serving the needs of the regular local divers is a great side business, but there aren't enough of them around here to keep all of the shops that are here open. If all we served were local divers, probably 2/3rds of the shops here would close.

Sorry, but that simply isn't the reality where I live. The majority of people who certify here, dive here. Sure, some ... probably most ... go on warm water trips too, but the majority of their diving is local.

I'm talking, specifically, about new, OW divers. The biggest chain in our area is a PADI facility, with eight locations throughout Puget Sound, cranking out new OW divers every week-end. The vast majority of those people continue to dive locally once they are certified.

Indeed, with the recent downturn, we're definitely seeing less competition as a few around the state have closed.

I don't think we've had a class yet this year that wasn't entirely filled with people going on vacation with the exception of the ice diving course. At the ice diving class we had at least as many instructors, ai's and DM's who were there to get in some dives than we had students.

All that tells me is that the local diving where you live isn't very good. That does not reflect the world-wide reality, you know.

PADI standards are sufficient for diving in entry level conditions. I've only seen the N.Atlantic once, but I wouldn't classify what I saw as entry level.

It is to people who live there.

I don't see PADI as perfect. I do see them as providing a good enough program when presented by an instructor who is doing their best to produce as good a diver as they can under the constraints they are handed.

It is those constraints that are the source of this discussion ... of course.

I think if PADI were to apply their constraints strictly to the occasional vacation diver ... with the proviso that those people were only to dive in warm-water locations under the supervision of a divemaster or instructor ... nobody would be complaining.

But that's not the reality ... and frankly, the more you post, the less I believe you have any idea what the reality beyond your local diving zone happens to be. It's a big world out there, and anywhere that local diving is decent, new divers are training to dive there.

The key question is, are they learning sufficient skills to dive their local conditions safely?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

No, but primarily.

In order to resolve this I have begun a poll - let democracy prevail!

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/325647-do-you-dive-locally.html

 

[ReefHugger]

As per KP:

I contend that any rational person looking at the PADI system will see a progression that is more than capable of taking a diver from an entry level warm-water vacation diver to a very accomplished recreational scuba diver.

And the 70% that drop out after OW? Collateral damage??

By focusing on a PADI OW diver and judging it by standards it does not claim for itself

PADI claims that its newly qualified OW divers, are certified to dive with an equal level buddy *unsupervised* .....etc. etc. PADI OW does not fit my yardstick of a diver that can safely dive unsupervised. Other agencies aim at this. And imo this is the misrepresentation to which another poster refered.

 

[ReefHugger]

Per Thal:

If PADI were to take the same line that KP is on and admit that their program is designed for people who don't really want to dive on a regular basis and who only want to dive in warm clear water with an escort, I'd have no problem and no objection

And if PADI changed the certificate name to something appropiate to reflect the above. Also, the C card should clearly show 'Supervised Dives Only'.

If all the above happened, then I would be like a pig in mud.

 

[FireInMyBones]

NACD cards have restrictions that are there to help keep people from dying. The basic OW only say not to go beyond 60' (some 100'). I have never seen the scuba police at depth. The guys at some FL springs are super strict about C-cards. If you are not back when they think you should be, they come in after you (this from a few of my cave diving friends).