New to ScubaBoard and would like to get your opinion

[Underwatercrawler]

Greetings to all. I'm new here in ScubaBoard and I would like to get your take on two dive accidents that happened here in the Philippines.

One 15 yo boy who was given an introdive got in the water together with other newbies. The lead found him unconcious underwater without his regulator in his mouth. They tried to revive the boy but all efforts were futile. Now they're having a debate on the proceedure of the lead diver (not stated if it was an Instructor or a Dive Master DSD Leader).

Another incident happened just last Sunday when a 27 year old man died and got lost during a drift dive. The diver went low on air and shared air with the Dive Master. After a few minutes, the Dive Master found that the Diver sharing his air was gone.

We have a lot of opinions on these two situations about the legalities but being a newly certified Dive Master myself, I would like to get your say on how to prevent these from happening.

I would think that when performing a DSD, especially with kids, a DSD leader should take the ratio more into consideration to be able to closely supervise the participants.

Now with the diver who went LOA, not sure what to think of this... It's every diver's responsibility to monitor his air consumption. However, buddy contact plays utmost importance in this regard.

What say you? I'll be following this thread to see your views. I'd like to learn from you too.

Thanks for you time.

 

[Scared Silly]

As a divemaster, both cases sound like inattentive leaders. When leading new divers I am constantly watching. Typically I am just above (1m) them so that I can watch (i.e. never out of my sight). If are going into an area with poor vis as we do our training in a lake I physically have them in my grasp - whether it be me grabbing their bcds or in some cases taking them by the hand.

When a diver experiences problems they do not leave me until they are secure by either being back on the boat or on land or being attended by another divemaster.

 

[wreckchick]

I am fortunate to do my DSDs in nice warm, clear water but they are NEVER more than a fin kick (maybe two on the second dive if they're awesome) away from me and I check on them about every 3.2 seconds throughout the dives. When I'm dealing with kids, I'm either bumping shoulders with them or have them holding onto me depending on the age and comfort level of the kid. I do a LOT of DSDs, like over 100 this year already and I can usually tell in the pool if someone is uncomfortable or going to need some extra care. Once in open water, I don't take my eyes off of them until I know they've settled in which is a vague statement but it something very obvious to me when I see it. I really can't picture a scenario where the dive leader with that 15 year old could have 'found' the diver in that condition and still have led the dive competently.

As to sharing air and 'realizing' that the diver was gone??? I have no idea how that happens. If I'm sharing air with someone am I white-knuckle attached to the bcd so there is no WAY I could lose that person, at all, period, full stop.

Rachel

 

[carolrose]

For a Discover Scuba, the participant is not a certified diver yet, so while yes we are responsible as certified divers for monitoring our own air, etc, the DSD participant is essentially doing the ultimate 'trust me' dive in that they basically have almost no knowledge and are completely reliant on the DM/instructor to keep them safe. I assisted with a DSD this weekend, and the instructor was within touch distance of the diver at all times, and I was behind him holding his tank valve, so we had complete control of the situation 100% of the time as it should be.

In an air share situation, it's a disgrace that the DM didn't have the awareness to know when the person sharing his air drifted away. Once you are sharing air, the dive should have been over, and the DM should have been maintaining touch and eye contact with the diver he was sharing air with until they were safely at the surface with the OOA divers bcd inflated.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Welcome to ScubaBoard.

There is a lot of conflicting information about both of these incidents so it's very difficult if not impossible to comment and the details you provided certainly do not shed much light on the circumstances. As usual with these types of incidents, there is a lot of third and fourth hand discussion so we are waiting for the facts to come to light.

Who are the people having the debate about the procedures with the Discover Scuba? Do you work in the dive industry here? I'm just curious where you got your information.

 

[Underwatercrawler]

For Scaresilly, Wreckchick and Caroln, thanks for your input. I agree that for those who are completely new to scuba diving, the dive leader should be within arm reach to his participants. Bumping shoulders is even better. I've had divers, certified OW even, with whom I had to hold hands with just to make sure they're comfortable. It didn't bother me at all. And yes, once a diver is sharing air with another diver, they should have direct contact and locked in, whether they hold on to each other's bcds (which is the best way) or arm-to-arm.

For Diver Dennis, I got these stories from another forum. One known dive instructor based in PG immediately gave his take on the legalities of the situation (refering to the 15 year-old boy) and was quick to judge that the diving industry here in the Philippines was tainted with so much illegalities concerning dive guides acting as DMs who are not certified, hence the birth of the debate on DMs/Instructors and dive guides that are cosidered illegal. There was also the debate regarding Introdives and DSDs (I'm sure you're aware of the so-called Introdive in the Philippines).

I apologise that the two stories are vague and yes, there would be 3rd, 4th, 5th hand discussions about it. However, the procedure I was refering to was the circumstances that occured and the debate was about procedure on Philippine dive practices by pros and "pros".

My take on things is that, now that we have these 2 accidents and it would be more fruitful for us to learn them and be more aware of what we do underwater - divers, equipment and environment.

Thank you all for your time. Please feel free to share your views and tips as well.

Cheers!

 

[Diver Dennis]

Sorry if I came on a bit strong but we have heard several different stories from people who were actually there.

Asia has some of the best dive guides I've been diving with. There may be uncertified pros somewhere here but the guides in these incidents were certified and from very safe operations. We'll see what information comes out.

I've done a lot of dives in PG and know a lot of the industry pros there. Some part time instructors, ex-pats, have a lot less experience than most of the DMs so I would be interested to see a link to that person's comments.

 

[trucker girl]

After a few minutes, the Dive Master found that the Diver sharing his air was gone.

I've never been in an OOA situation, but I'm wondering how this happens. I mean, the guy/gal is physically attached to your gear via the mouth and you lose track of them? Seems odd to me...

 

[rhadamantus]

For Diver Dennis, I got these stories from another forum. One known dive instructor based in PG immediately gave his take on the legalities of the situation (refering to the 15 year-old boy) and was quick to judge that the diving industry here in the Philippines was tainted with so much illegalities concerning dive guides acting as DMs who are not certified, hence the birth of the debate on DMs/Instructors and dive guides that are cosidered illegal.

I've done a lot of dives in PG and know a lot of the industry pros there. Some part time instructors, ex-pats, have a lot less experience than most of the DMs so I would be interested to see a link to that person's comments.

i am not close to your dive metrics, dennis, but i agree with you there. there was a time in not so distant past that i spent too much time in PG- not so much diving but more so getting wasted (but that's a different story)... but i agree with you...lots of industry pros there... i am not aware of any uncertified dive guides. what i am aware though are that there are so many boatmen who are more experienced than the part-time or newly DMs (expats) but who cannot and were not allowed to dive a guide because they do not have the proper certification for it.

not sure about the illegalities you are referring to, crawler, but it would be interesting to find it out, too.

 

[Matthew]

Greetings to all. I'm new here in ScubaBoard and I would like to get your take on two dive accidents that happened here in the Philippines.

One 15 yo boy who was given an introdive got in the water together with other newbies. The lead found him unconcious underwater without his regulator in his mouth. They tried to revive the boy but all efforts were futile. Now they're having a debate on the proceedure of the lead diver (not stated if it was an Instructor or a Dive Master DSD Leader).

Another incident happened just last Sunday when a 27 year old man died and got lost during a drift dive. The diver went low on air and shared air with the Dive Master. After a few minutes, the Dive Master found that the Diver sharing his air was gone.

We have a lot of opinions on these two situations about the legalities but being a newly certified Dive Master myself, I would like to get your say on how to prevent these from happening.

I would think that when performing a DSD, especially with kids, a DSD leader should take the ratio more into consideration to be able to closely supervise the participants.

Now with the diver who went LOA, not sure what to think of this... It's every diver's responsibility to monitor his air consumption. However, buddy contact plays utmost importance in this regard.

What say you? I'll be following this thread to see your views. I'd like to learn from you too.

Thanks for you time.

Re last Sundays incident:

One of the few things we are sure of at this time is that the fatal dive was at Mainit Point, which I assume you know is an advanced site, deep, often with treacherous downcurrents. If you get caught in those currents, an air-sharing ascent can be much more difficult to manage than if you were diving easier, shallow sites where LOAs are no big deal. My point is that preventing such accidents is NOT just talking about LOA procedures, monitoring air, or buddy contact. It starts with choosing the site and knowing the prevailing conditions, planning your dive according to the abilities/experience level of the group, planning your gas consumption (different from just monitoring your gauge during the dive) etc.etc. These are supposed to be taught in OW, however, many of the pros - yes, the "legal" ones - neglect these basic stuff.

Now, since we do not know yet the circumstances of last Sunday's fatal dive - how many divers, experience level, fitness, their dive plan, did the victim go OOA or did he drown from a flooded mask etc. - and with you not even providing an insight on how diving in Mainit is like, I'm sorry to say that your query will only elicit responses that may be sound safety practices, but are useless as far as preventing similar incidents is concerned.