Rescue class equipment

Let's see if I have this right...
(I probably don't)
In the end, this turns out to be about a photo CAPTION that's incorrect?
Sheesh.
I don't see why MHK felt he had to apologize to *anyone* for the fuss - HE didn't post the photo with that deceptive caption on the GUE site (it's down now, BTW). Ok, it's an old photo. It should have come with an "after" photo and a better caption. Seems to me that MHK explained its existence in a reasonable manner (goodness knows the question of its age is easy enough to check on), so why wasn't that the end of it?

There's two types of "Dive Nazi" behaviour here. Neither is beneficial IMHNO (N="newbie"). I don't know which is worse - the foaming-at-the-mouth "DIR" fanatic or the foaming-at-the-mouth "anti-DIR" fanatic. Both groups are acting like they've gargled with shampoo.

I found out this weekend that the LDS in town here won't let me train with them or dive with them with my current regulator setup. Why? Because with the fins, DG/BT, the long hose and the fact I'm planning to order a BP/wings soon the dive shop owner thinks I've been influenced too much by "a bunch of Dive Nazis down in <insert name of popular Ontario dive location here>". (??? I don't have a clue who he's talking about).

The official excuse is that "the long hose is dangerous because it could strangle me".

Great. Foaming fanatacism on both sides is poised to WIPE OUT most of my dive season and (almost) ALL of the progress I was planning to make this summer. I don't have a lot of instructional choice up here. I'll have to change the hoses away from something I find to be perfectly functional or dive elsewhere all because SOME IDIOTS OUT THERE (Walter, can I say that if I'm not specific? It doesn't look like a personal attack to me. - WWW™) are putting people's backs up to the point where they are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Thanks a <insert your own expletive here> lot. You'd think we'd have learned from recent world events how damaging fanatacism can be to the perception of any "way"; religion OR diving.
cat
(now preparing for a shallow summer - thanks for letting me rant)

I don't use the long hose. I don't believe it is the best set up for the type of diving I do. When some undertrained diver on a charter boat runs out of air, I want to have them close and have a grip on their BC.

I've looked at the DIR configuration. Anyone who thinks it is a danger because of strangulation has not examined the set up. There were cavers in the '80's who did have a long hose routing that did pose such a hazard. The DIR hose routing does not go around the diver's neck, it goes across the chest.

I realize your options are limited, but are you sure you really want to train with folks who have such an attitude?

yes, the diving kind

I was recently told that I could not take rescue with a long hose, and definitely not with a BP+Wing either.

This from an instructor I like, and who IS full-cave certified.

I am still contemplating whether I want to (1) accede, put short hoses back on my kit for the purpose of the class, and use a conventional BC for the class, or (2) decide to keep my money in my pocket and dive some more rather than take the class.

Genesis once bubbled...
yes, the diving kind

I was recently told that I could not take rescue with a long hose, and definitely not with a BP+Wing either.

This from an instructor I like, and who IS full-cave certified.

I am still contemplating whether I want to (1) accede, put short hoses back on my kit for the purpose of the class, and use a conventional BC for the class, or (2) decide to keep my money in my pocket and dive some more rather than take the class.

Click to expand...

One of the main goals of the rescue class is to practice rescue skills in the equipment and environment you usually dive in. Any instructor who insists that you change your gear for a rescue class doesn't understand the class or it's purpose.

One of the main goals of the rescue class is to practice rescue skills in the equipment and environment you usually dive in. Any instructor who insists that you change your gear for a rescue class doesn't understand the class or it's purpose.

Click to expand...

This is the same shop that, on their dive boat, basically banned me with a BP+Wing+Longhose, with the Captain (who owns the shop) lambasting my choice of dive gear and claiming that it was "amazingly dangerous" that I had a bungied backup.

Now this INSTRUCTOR is someone I like - a lot. She did my AOW, but she also teaches for this shop, so if I want her for Rescue, I'm stuck.

I haven't decided what to do here.... may just blow it off.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


One of the main goals of the rescue class is to practice rescue skills in the equipment and environment you usually dive in. Any instructor who insists that you change your gear for a rescue class doesn't understand the class or it's purpose.

Click to expand...

I can't say I agree with that Mike. This particular instructor probably is looking at it from the point of view of not wanting himself or the other students distracted by having to do things differently for DIR (and I use the term as shorthand for BP/longhose) style gear. DIR style gear may be gaining in popularity, but remains relatively rare compared to the total population of divers.

What are the other students supposed to do when they strip the BP? Cut the webbing in the class?

This kind of reminds me of the threads started by budding instructors who want to teach in BP&W and are upset that shops will make them use whatever they sell. Mike, you have correctly pointed out that divers tend to have type A personalities. Perhaps this goes along with a desire to be a system buster or dislike of authority.

I took rescue in a bp/wing & long hose and was paired up with another student that had one also. It was much more difficult dealing with our gear than it was with the other students that had QR fastex buckles on their shoulder straps. Not to mention, all the stuff boltsnapped and bungied to the diver. The instructor was cool with it and had us switch partners so everyone could experience all the gear.

IMHO, in a real emergency, that webbing is getting cut.., the backup ripped off, and maybe some boltsnaps cut off too..

What are the other students supposed to do when they strip the BP? Cut the webbing in the class?

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I can doff and don in the water, why is it that big of a deal?

Yeah, there are no fastex clips to "quick release" it. So what?

And what if someone ends up having to "rescue" someone who is IN a BP+W?

I agree that in a real emergency, the snips come out. But its not impossible by any stretch of the imagination to doff and don a BP while wet.

Darn - this really needs a new thread by this point.

Hmm, given the diversity of equipment out there (seen some very, very complicated BCs recently) doesn't it make sense to encourage students with different equipment to take the same S&R class just so they do get the experience O-ring described?

What's the distraction here? Sure, it's easier on both student and instructor if they only have to figure out how to extricate someone from one gear setup. Got to wonder how useful that's going to be, though, unless you always dive with the same people.

Is S&R worth doing so you learn well so you can actually be of some use to the strangers you'll probably end up in the water with or is it just a card that you qualify for by the easiest means available?

If taking the course means changing gear just for the course (and donating the octo instead of the primary and training all kinds of things in that aren't going to apply once I'm back doing non-class diving) just because it's easier and more convenient for the duration of the class, then what's the point? Real emergencies don't tend to be easy or convenient. I don't want to end up thinking I know what I'm doing when I don't. Pity. Where I am right now is a nice place to dive and it would be desireable if I could get the training that I'll need to dive more of it. Now it seems it's going to stay out of reach.

Genesis: don't think we dive wet up here in water cold enough to freeze regs? Think again. For some, the temperature limitation for diving wet is that the water has to be still liquid.

leadweight once bubbled...


I can't say I agree with that Mike. This particular instructor probably is looking at it from the point of view of not wanting himself or the other students distracted by having to do things differently for DIR (and I use the term as shorthand for BP/longhose) style gear. DIR style gear may be gaining in popularity, but remains relatively rare compared to the total population of divers.

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A quote from the PADI rescue diver standards. "Rescue training excersizes provide for individual differences and capabilities while encouraging divers to experiment with alternate techniques" The course philosophy stresses thinking on your feet and being able to adapt techniques to the situation. To limit the equipment to a specific type is a violation of the course philosophy if not the standard itself.

The only equipment requirements are that the student be properly equiped for the environment. Nothing is said about instructor preferance or prejiduces.

What are the other students supposed to do when they strip the BP? Cut the webbing in the class?

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I teach rescue classes while wearing a bp/wing and I teach students wearing them. They come off easy and we'e never had to cut a harness. A student must practice in the equipment they dive in or the course is almost a total wast. I might add that I might want students to get a shot at working with more than one type of equipment in the class, though

This kind of reminds me of the threads started by budding instructors who want to teach in BP&W and are upset that shops will make them use whatever they sell. Mike, you have correctly pointed out that divers tend to have type A personalities. Perhaps this goes along with a desire to be a system buster or dislike of authority.

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You lost me here. A bp/wing is certainly a viable equipment choice for any diver. For an instructor to ban them from their classes is, IMO, inexcusable. What good does it do a student to spend two days in OW practicing rescue techniques with equipment they don't use? It's not a matter of bucking authority it's a matter of giving the student a class that's consistant with the intent of those who designed the class. The very heart of the rescue class is the philosophy of being able to adapt the application of core skills and principals to different environments, resources, equipment and personal differences like size and strength.

I repeat this instructor/shop does not understand or does not care about what the course was designed to be.