BSAC/PADI

In the UK PADI is alleged by some people to stand for 'Pay And Die Immediately'.
PADI is not perceived as a serious SCUBA Diving Trainer, but as a commercial organisation that allows individuals interested in Diving to make a living out of it, with PADI taking its cut.
I know a very experienced (35 years) multi agency (including PADI) instuctor that very strongly believes that PADI's approach ie. 2 newly qualified OW divers being allowed to dive independantly, is contrary to safe practice.
This combined with the commercial pressure on PADI Instructors to 'certify' i.e. bonus payments related to number of certs, has lead to thousands of 'unsuitable / unsafe' people being qualified to dive.

nesima once bubbled...
I know a very experienced (35 years) multi agency (including PADI) instuctor that very strongly believes that PADI's approach ie. 2 newly qualified OW divers being allowed to dive independantly, is contrary to safe practice.

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Are you saying that other agencies don't allow OW divers to dive by themselves?

In the US, once you're certified, you can dive all you want...

Yes.

In the UK both established training agencies - SAA and BSAC do not allow OW divers to dive independantly.

If you are below the 'Club Diver' qualification in both agencies, which is the equivalent of PADI Rescue you must dive with a 'Dive Leader' which is equivalent to PADI Divemaster.

Part of the reasoning being you must have somebody who is rescue and medically trained to assist you if you get into trouble.
I don't remember the exact number of dives but I think you need to have logged something like 30 dives before you can become a 'Club Diver'.

Plus please remember that diving in the UK normally means cold, rough conditions with often poor visability.

It might be old fashioned, but safety takes priority over profit and personal freedom in the UK.

nesima once bubbled...
This combined with the commercial pressure on PADI Instructors i.e. bonus payments to 'certify' related to number of certs, has lead to thousands of 'unsuitable / unsafe' people being qualified to dive.

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Where do you get this stuff?? Bonus payments? That's a flat out lie, and you should be ashamed for passing disinformation.

Who gets to be the Scuba Police and determine what is unsuitable/unsafe?? You? In what conditions? Would you tell a certified OW diver with 25 dives that he/she cannot dive with a certified buddy in a warm water tropical location with zero current at a dive site with a max depth of 60ft (~18m)? That's pure hogwash. ut:

I've never been to the UK, but I have heard the diving there is cold, dark and scary, with lots of weather. Drysuit not optional. Sounds like the BSAC standards are RIGHT ON for your location. BSAC should be careful about implying those standards are necessary everywhere.

nesima once bubbled... In the UK PADI is alleged by some people to stand for 'Pay And Die Immediately'.

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The statistics are available from DAN, and they have proven conclusively that the accident rates for PADI are IDENTICAL within statistical significance with all other agencies. It's a US org, so I don't think they looked at numbers from BSAC.

It might be old fashioned, but safety takes priority over profit and personal freedom in the UK.

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Safety never goes out of fashion, even for US PADI instructors despite what a jealous dive community would wish to perpetuate. Yes, PADI has aggressively expanded the sport, YET, the accident rate, according to DAN, has NOT, repeat NOT changed drastically. PADI is the biggest, so they draw all the criticism and blame, but often, the RSTC (which has membership from most of the agencies) was behind the change in standards, not PADI (i.e. lowering cert age to 10 years old).

Part of the reasoning being you must have somebody who is rescue and medically trained to assist you if you get into trouble.

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I'm sorry, that just strikes me wrong.... I got into diving for freedom, not so some Govt/quasi-Govt agency can tell me where, when, how long, why... blah blah blah... We don't need Socialist diving here in the US...

Of course I'm one of the last in the US who still believes in personal accountability... if I get hurt because of a stupid error/diving beyond my limits/lack of safety planning.... then I, and only I am the one to blame. I don't need to sue the LDS, my OW Inst, dive gear mfg, buddy, dive boat, etc... Most people in the US now see the courts as a potential lottery winnings and that is killing sports like scuba diving.

1. Bonus Payments; I did not mean to imply that PADI themselves pay bonus payments. I know for a fact/personal experience that many dive shops/operators in the UK and Egypt pay instructors a low basic retainer and then a bonus for each student they successfully train i.e. certify. Instructors and dive guides also make up their money by receiving commission on trips sold.

2. The British approach is based on a 'Club' system with more experienced people helping less experienced people. The point with Scuba is that one bad mistake can kill you ! even when you are doing an 18 metre dive in warm clear water with no current.

3. Accident Rates: I believe they are about the same across all the major agencies. One difference is that both the SAA and BSAC allow full decompression diving, my SAA tables go to a maximum depth of 57 metres. Therefore mistakes/problems at say 45 metres can have more severe consequences than something that happens at 15 metres.

4. Personal Accountability/ Responsibility: The principle is fine, but realistically any sensible and caring society will try and ensure that individuals are sufficiently trained, experienced and knowledgable to make informed decisions for themselves. How often do rescuers end up being injured or even killed trying to rescue people that have got themselves in a life threatening situation through sheer stupidity/lack of experience ? Either up mountains or under the sea.

5. PADI have provided a cost effective route for many people to get into diving, including myself. But once you gain experience it becomes obvious to most people that a more rigorous and quality based approach would deliver better trained divers. I have met many PADI OW divers who are not only a danger to themselves but to the people who dive with them. In short they should never have been certified ! without further training.

BSAC and the SAA are a long way from perfect, but there training and approach is more rigorous and based on getting everyone up to a minimum of 'Club' diver i.e. PADI Rescue. If you don't reach the required standard/skill level you don't get certified ! That is far better than allowing some insufficiently skilled/ experienced people to go off and dive independently because they are a fully qualified diver i.e PADI OW and they have the cert card to prove it.

All agencies should be looking to expand the sport, but also to improve standards and turn out better trained and informed divers.

There is a mistaken impression in the UK that BSAC is "superior" simply because they are still the predominant certifying agency in the UK. BSAC is #1 in their geographic area like CMAS is #1 in France. Because of tradition & favourable local legislation.

Other "asseritions":

- BSAC's club approach is superior to PADI's teaching mandate. To my knowledge all other agencies suscribe to similar certifying regimens, so why the emphasis only on PADI?

- PADI does not teach to local standards. If a student takes ALL their training in a local environment, they will be trained to local standards. For example, PADI standards dictate a certain ratio of students to Instructors in Open Water. A good Instructor (regardless of agency affiliation) will modify the ratios to make them safer, esp in cold, low vis conditions.

Frankly, agency bashing is petty & useless. ALL agencies teach the same basics: the laws of physics and physiology do not change depending on which letters are on the C-Card.

Which agency a diver chooses is irrelevant. Just as there are bad divers with every agency, there are good ones. The only reason one agency may appear to have more poor divers is sheer numbers: if you have the lion's share of the market, you will (unfortunately) have the lion's share of problem divers.

Time to stop fussing over petty issues and get on with keeping our sport safe.

~SubMariner~

nesima,

Rather like techdiverKP, I found myself taken aback by your threads. Normally, I let hot wind blow right on by but I think that you really need a quick lesson in diving qualifications and their importance to each organisation.

Firstly, who doesn't perceive PADI as a serious diving training agency? The other agencies that are losing divers to PADI each year? Get real. Why is PADI the biggest training organisation in the UK?

You tell us of the multi agencied instructor who has concerns about PADIs approach to allowing newly qualified divers to dive independently. Of course, he showed you the standard that allows this. No!! Well, I'm not suprised. There isn't one. You go further and state that the two other dive organisations in the UK, BSAC and SAA do not allow this. Wrong! Ooops, I get the feeling that you maybe haven't done your homework. Or have we been sitting around the bar listening to the tall tales of other instructors. BSAC Ocean Divers (the guys you call Club Divers) may, with the express permission of the Diving Officer dive together.

techdiverKP called the idea of bonus payments a flat out lie. Saves me the job I suppose. I was never paid a bonus on the number of certifications that I made. My bonus, like all other dive instructors who work for their living was made on a student signing up for the course. To go on and say that this has lead to thousands of 'unsuitable/unsafe' people being qualified to dive is an insult. If you feel so vehemently anti-PADI why is it that you put in your profile that you are a PADI Divemaster. I only hope that you aren't working with any PADI Instructors at this time. As for the comment you make later about instructors and dive guides being paid a commission on selling trips to divers - so what! Jealous?

Back to the academics, young man. You stated that the Club Diver qualification in both agencies (BSAC and SAA) are the equivalent of the PADI Rescue Diver and that a Dive Leader is the equivalent of the PADI Divemaster. Whilst you are correct in your equivalencies with the SAA you are so far out with BSAC. You mention that you cannot remember the exact number of dives to be logged but thought it was somewhere in the region of 30 before you could become a Club Diver. Let me enlighten you. For the BSAC equivalent of Club Diver the number of dives required is - 5.

You go on, in trying to illuminate Kevin a little more, by explaining the British system is based on a Club approach with the more experienced divers helping the less experienced people. As a PADI instructor am I not considered an experienced diver? I think I know, probably a little better than you do, that one bad mistake can kill you. That is where I pride myself on being able to teach those life saving skills in the first place. You intimate that PADI training does not ensure that individuals are sufficiently trained, experienced and knowledgeable to make informed decisions for themselves. You talk crap and, I suspect, being a PADI Divemaster, know it. The only real strength in the club system is that suitably trained divers have a place to meet, a focal point around which to base their diving. I have been in BSAC clubs where the training has taken anywhere up to 2 years to achieve the entry level qualification - or didn't anyone bother to tell you about that side of the coin?

As if to reassure yourself that you have the moral high ground here, you go ahead and tell us that in the BSAC/SAA organisations the training is more rigorous and if the student does not reach the required standard/skill level they don't get cetified. Yeah, right. Don't try and kid a kidder. Think back on your previous training. I am willing to bet, a pound to a pinch of ****, that you actually made a crossover from PADI Divemaster straight to SAA. Were they concerned about your skills or were you just so good that the abysmally low PADI standards did not affect you.

Who the hell do I think I am!! Well, I've been diving for 27 years. I qualified as a Royal Navy Ships Diver in 1975, became an Aircrew Diver in 1978 and have been teaching with the BSAC and PADI for eleven years. Basically, a nobody who doesn't like to be called a nobody.

Safe diving.

1. 'PADIs approach to allowing newly qualified divers to dive independently. Of course, he showed you the standard that allows this. No!!'

As far as I am aware 2 newly qualified PADI OW divers can dive as an independant buddy pair.

2. 'BSAC Ocean Divers (the guys you call Club Divers) may, with the express permission of the Diving Officer dive together.'

You may be correct about the BSAC Ocean Divers. A qualification I believe that was primarily brought in to allow BSAC Overseas to compete with PADI OW in tourist destinations. Plus it allowed a person to train with BSAC without having to join a club.
SAA Club Divers are the equivalent of PADI Rescue.

3. 'My bonus, like all other dive instructors who work for their living was made on a student signing up for the course.'

This is your personal experience, my personal experience is of bonuses being paid for successful certifications.

4. ' You intimate that PADI training does not ensure that individuals are sufficiently trained, experienced and knowledgeable to make informed decisions for themselves.'

Two newly qualified PADI OW divers, diving independantly, are rarely likely to have the experience and knowledge to make informed decisions themselves.

5. 'I have been in BSAC clubs where the training has taken anywhere up to 2 years to achieve the entry level qualification'

I have come across ex-BSAC trainees that had got fed up with slowness of trying to get qulified with BSAC within the club system.

6. 'You actually made a crossover from PADI Divemaster straight to SAA'

I had to crossover to SAA Dive Supervisor in order to become a Club Diving Officer. My PADI qualifications were partly accepted and I had to have additional training.

For the record, I have dived with good and bad divers from most of the training organisations. The majority of incidents/problems that I have personally seen/been on the boat have involved alleged BSAC divers. I don't know if this is because there is peer pressure within the clubs or they are doing decompression diving and therefore diving closer to the limits. NB: This is not an attack on BSAC it is purely my personal experience.

nesima,

I'm gunna have to completely disagree with you here. Most of your statements are assumptions and your explanations for why these agencies differ from one another. As already indicated in these other response threads, the statistics do not agree with your bold assumptions, nor do my personal experiences.

Siting the depth of a dive and the general danger of scuba diving and issues requiring rescue doesn't make your arguments stick. While the statements you made about these things are correct, yes diving is dangerous (very general), and yes diving with a rescue capable diver is better (when would this ever NOT be true?), and yes diving at 57 meters vs 15 meters offers additional hazards (again phenomenally general and generic) I'm still yet to see the connection between these statements and the relationship to the subject of PADI producing responsible, capable divers, I can't see the connection.

Dive shops control bonuses and pay scales in America, and many shops offer instruction (from any recreational agency not just PADI) as a loss-leader to equipment sales. There is NO MONEY to be made in scuba instruction. I believe I recently calculated my hourly pay to be 1/3 of minimum wage set by the federal government and that's with a gaurantee of 4 students minimum pay scale.

Overlooking inflaming statements you've made like what P.A.D.I stands for ... implying that divers who go through the PADI program and pass the program to receive their certification card are poorly trained or lack self-rescue skills, or proper understanding of their local diving environment, or how to judge a dive, or what their own training limitations or personal limitations are ... is further implying that human adults can't make decisions, lack common sense, or are unable to practically apply themselves to something they've been trained to do. Simply put ... that is a profoundly rediculous statement.

Additionally the generic statement that further diving education results in a more-qualified diver OR that a more experienced diver KNOWS MORE than a less experienced diver again is so generically true what specific point does that make? As an instructor I KNOW more than my students ... isn't that expected for my level of education and experience? What does this prove ... nothing. The bottom line has to be is PADI placing certified divers in environments beyond their education and experience. You see every diver starts somewhere. PADI encourages divers to never stop their education. Good divers know that continuing their education is the key to improving their diving abilities and maintaining their skills.

When the dive environment or circumstance calls for further education NO unqualified divers should even contemplate attempting that dive. Never dive beyond your experience and education unless being trained by a professional for that type of diving and in order to gain the eductation and experience to qualify you to dive in that circumstance. Again of course this is true... so what point does it make? Certainly, I can tell you that PADI NEVER tells divers to dive beyond their training or experience ... and common sense should tell divers not to do so either ... ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Final thought ... PADI teaches and instructors (should) also enforce the Buddy system during their training. The buddy system (which you are calling independant diving) affords some level of redundancy for divers. Dives are planned and executed around this system, and it should guide every aspect of the dive. PADI OW divers who abandon this method ... are really deviating from their training and that goes back to the previous point about diving beyond training or experience.

I have in fact heard instructors improperly tell their student divers "If you get trained with PADI and with my shop, you can dive anywhere!" Shame on that instructor. This false statement is not PADI's fault. No question the propagation of falsehoods like this are what hurt the scuba industry. It gives students an inaccurate view of the limitations of their OW training and experience. But this blame cannot be placed on PADI. So if you want to know where most of these problems stem from look to the instructors NOT the agency.

Keep diving, keep learning.

There aren't many around more critical of dive training these days than me but where do some of you get this crap?

Most divers I come accross don't look to good in the water and I avoid any and all tourist diving situations but I'll put up real money right now that I would see the same lack of skill watching the average BSAC diver as watching the average PADI, NAUI, YMCA, SSI, CMAS or whatever agency student. I'll bet the instructors are just as "off" in the water also. The mistakes I see in one agency are the same as the ones I see in another. My money says BSAC isn't any different.