what do you consider an advanced dive?

I see the term tossed around a bit, and I think it means different things to different people. To my concern, an advanced dive is one that can push the limits of recreational diving, or it can be one that pushes the limits of a recreational diver ... and the same site can be advanced or not depending on timing and conditions.

What I'd like to get are some examples of what you consider an advanced dive ... and why you consider it that.

For example, we have a dive site here called Day Island Wall. It's a wall that tops at 45 to 70 fsw, depending on which end you're diving on, and never goes below about 90 fsw along the bottom of the wall. It's in the Tacoma Narrows ... which means current can be strong and unpredictable ... making it an advanced dive in my view, since it's a shore dive and there's a necessity to get back to your entry point when you're ready to exit. There's also the need to swim through some bull kelp, which can be a potential entanglement hazard when the water's flowing. On the other hand, if you time it right and there's little or no current, it's a pretty benign dive.

Another dive site ... Lobster Shop Wall ... is a clay wall that begins at nearly 90 fsw, and drops down to about 120. It's a reasonably long swim to get out to the wall. Depth, gas and NDL management make this one an advanced dive by my view. Once back over the top of the wall, the diver needs to make sure they have adequate gas reserves for a longish swim upslope and back to the entry point.

I thought about this because I recently had a student in my AOW class ask me about these two dives and whether or not I thought they were ready for them. My answer was "No ... get some more dives first". Even with the AOW class I teach ... which provides a bit more "meat" than a typical AOW class ... what prepares a diver for advanced diving isn't a class, but a level of comfort, ability to make good decisions, and knowledge to prepare adequately for the unexpected ... and this only comes through the aquisition of bottom time.

So what's your idea of an "advanced" dive site ... and what amount of experience and training would you consider appropriate to dive that site? It'd be interesting to see how this differs for varying regions and conditions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Any dive can be different levels for different divers... Take someone that was trained in the springs of N Florida to the Lakes of N Arkansas and the level of the dive just went up... Reverse the scenario and the level of the dive just went down... I think for the typical OW diver, an advanced dive is anything over 40' with low visibility or any sort of current. That is based on personal experience as a diver, not on any standards of an organization.
-Tim

As usual, you are absolutely right about the same site varying from a piece of cake to a potential disaster depending on conditions (current, visibility, etc.) and the diver's level of comfort. A few years back I was diving a site that I considered fairly benign and had done a number of dives there to depths of as much as 200 fsw without incident. One day I was completing my deco in the shallows and noticed there was a current kicking up, so I meandered up current from the boat so I could drift back to it once I surfaced. I was a bit low on air in my main tank and didn't want to open my pony so I flipped over on my back and started kicking toward the dive boat. The next thing I knew the boat was way behind me and I was struggling to get to the current line in time! We estimated the current had kicked up to as much as 3.5 knots in a short time. Have never experienced anything like that at that site before or since.

Most of my diving today is at recreational depths and often fairly shallow (above 60 fsw) to ensure more bottom time. However even at my usual site these days (Casino Point Dive Park), which I consider a very easy dive location, there can be days that are very challenging. Twice I've dived deeper (90-100 fsw) in the park under conditions of poor visibility and incurred mild deco obligations. The vis was so bad I could not see any landmarks as I did my "green water" deco stop... and unexpectedly strong currents drove me out into "the shipping lanes" outside the harbor.

I'm quite sure your classes are above and beyond the merely required. However, I think it is absurd for agencies to refer to AOW certs as "advanced." Back in the old days (under L. A. County cert) my OW course (once I realized I had to be certified to get fills) was three weeks long, covered much of what is in the current OW-AOW-Rescue sequence and allowed us to dive to the recreational limit of 130 fsw. However, it was not considered an "advanced" course. Only through gaining dive experience over the years did I even start to consider myself an "advanced" diver.

My favorite local dive is the Pt Dume pinnacles - see Dive Spots - Point Dume for an overview. It's definitely an advanced site, but is certainly doable by an OW student if conditions are right. If conditions aren't right, it can be a real problem, and I've seen the LA County Baywatch lifeguard boat rescue divers out there on multiple occasions (and no, they don't operate as a dive service, I've asked). It's a combination of planning, conditions, skills, experience, gas management, physical condition and judgement that make it an advanced dive. Typically a long (300+ yard) surface swim to get out to submarine pinnacles that are at the northern tip of Santa Monica Bay, the pinnacles also sit at the edge of the Dume submarine canyon. Currents can be wild, so a bailout plan is critical. Depths range from 30 to 60 feet, visibility can range from 5 to 100 ft, current can pick up to several knots suddenly (or shift direction partway through the dive), there are multiple paths around the pinnacles, so location and situational awareness is important, and the return to the entry point is by navigating back most of the way underwater over barren sand. I took two experienced diver friends out there about a month ago when viz was unexpectedly bad and they were convinced we went around the pinnacles three times in under 30 minutes (we didn't). There can be lots of surge between sections, and some sections are dead ends, so propulsion and buoyancy control are important. We went out there this past Sunday (not much tidal change, so less chance of big current) and though I've now dived the site about a dozen times, I discovered some new paths through the pinnacles, including an area with shear vertical walls on each side we could barely squeeze through. Surf entry and exit also add to the advanced nature of the dive at the start and finish, with a steep shore break possible at times.

When conditions are good, it's absolutely specatuclar in terms of both sea life and structure, rivaling the best spots in the Channel Islands, and probably one of my all time favorite dive spots, plus it's less than a 5 minute drive from my house. And there are restrooms and showers to get all the sand off after the dive!

drbill:

However, I think it is absurd for agencies to refer to AOW certs as "advanced."

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Again... personal opinion, I think the advanced classes are more intended to be introductions into "advanced" skills. The only thing that can make a diver "advanced" is diving... and a LOT of it. I'm teaching an advanced class in a couple of weeks and what I have told my students is that this is their introduction to certain types of dives with someone along to give them pointers and do a bit of mentoring, more than it is a CLASS.... When the class is over, they will have dove to nearly 100', done some actual navigation in reduced visibility, done a drift dive and gotten the feel for managing themselves as well as their dive flag/smb and learned a bit about boat procedures for doing boat dives.... all skills that they will use as they grow as divers.... but at the end of the class it will be up to THEM to continue to evolve their diving skills... I just had the pleasure of introducing them to those skills in a more controlled environment.

Tim

I read the original post and spent some time thinking about it, and what I realized is that I find it much easier to define what I would consider a beginner site. If the site has an easy entry and exit, a hard deck in the open water recreational range, structure that permits fairly easy navigation, and no likelihood of significant current or rough water, it's a beginner site.

So the things I think make for an "advanced" site are depth (necessity to control buoyancy and maintain awareness to avoid going too deep), complex or challenging entries or exits (for example, Salt Creek, getting in and out in the surf over the rocks), difficult navigation or very restricted options for exit (like Day Island Wall), or the possibility for strong, unpredictable, or vertical currents (eg. Skyline Wall).

But those are my personal definitions, because using them, you come up with most of the big wall dives in Cozumel as being advanced dives (which I believe them to be), and I know a lot of people disagree with me about that. But the 600 foot walls in Indonesia, with constant current and up- and downcurrents, were definitely advanced. I would term the prepared wrecks in Nanaimo as advanced sites, because of depth, current, and the possibility of doing a long green water ascent if you lose track of the buoy lines.

Any dive where the pre-dive briefing includes: "Let me know what's down there..."

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To me, an advanced diver is someone that is aware of their limitations and stays within them... probably to broad of a statement but if your aware of your surroundings, know your limitations, experienced with all types of conditions whether its poor vis, heavy current, rough surf, heavy seas, gas management, buddy awareness, and such; then to me, I would consider the diver advanced...

Many times we see AOW with a minimum of 10-12 dives... but we also still see the occasional OW diver with 800+ dives... Who is the better diver? (Rhetorical)

Same thing goes for a DM... I know a couple of em' that have never been outside of a quarry... Would I listen to them on a deep wreck dive in heavy seas? again, rhetorical...

So I guess it comes back to experience... I never ask a person how long they have been diving for, I always ask how many and what type of dives does one have...!

Just my own opinion... lee

As a solo diver I consider anything with unknown elements to be advanced, as far as prep/equipment is concerned. This could mean bottom depths, walls, current, low vis etc... This can change as I become familiar with the site (or not). I am a local diver so I can afford to take the time to become familiar with sites (like progressive penetration) and not push the limits right off the bat, which I think is a pretty safe way to dive.

This may sound like coming straight from the (PADI) book but:
any dive site that has probable conditions beyond what a 'typical' diver would experience in their typical diving experiences. These conditions may be from a deeper average depth, stronger current, limited visibility etc.
This creates a large grey area of course; in what conditions was the diver trained? What have they experienced since then? This is why I believe that logbooks are invaluable to an operator (or a buddy) who will introduce a diver in to a different area.

Divers with experience understand that the oceans move in mysterious ways- benign sites become difficult on 'any given Monday'. We cannot control this and often we cannot even predict this- akin to predicting the weather. We can be reasonably prudent in our definitions of easy/advanced dives.