Conservatism level of Suunto Computers

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Yeoh Chee Weng

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Hi fellow divers,

I returned from a trip to Layang-Layang Island in Sabah, East Malaysia after a 5d/4n vacation. I was using a Suunto Cobra while my buddy had an Oceanic Veo. In one wall dive in the morning we went down to 44 m. and stayed there for just a min. before doing a slow ascend and multi-levelled the rest of the dive. In my second dive to 35 m. after a surface interval of 2 hr. 15 min. my dive computer went into deco mode and I had to do a safety stop for 17 mins. The optimal ceiling zone went up to 3 m. and I had a hard time staying at that level because of 2 m. swell which swept me upwards. I was careless earlier in my dive when I ignore the blinking ascending time signal to start my ascent immediately. Instead I moved up gradually preferring to keep close to my buddy who was concentrating on his photography.

At the safety stop I could not complete the decompression because I ran out of air. I only managed a 12 min. decompression and still had 5 more mins. to go when the pressure went down to zero bars! From a previous experience and confirmed by checking the Suunto reference manual I knew that even though the computer showed the air time to be zero, there is still about 35 bar pressure left. I was still able to inflate my BC at the surface. However, the Cobra went into Error mode and locked out for 48 hrs.

What was surprising was that my buddy's Oceanic dive computer was more forgiving and he did a 5 min. safety stop at 5 m. without any penalty. I was diving close to my buddy, we were never more that 1-2 m. below or above each other at all times. How was it that the deco time varied so greatly? I did not add any extra level of conservatism to my Personal Adjustment.

There is an unwritten policy by the dive operator in Layang-Layang Island that divers whose dive computers are locked out in Error mode would be barred for 24 hours from diving. My appeal to reduce my surface interval rest to 12 hrs. was refused even though I reasoned that Suunto's Reduced Gradient Bubble Model is ultra conservative. I lost 3 dives which cost me 270 dollars. So divers who use Suunto Dive computers be extra careful if you come to Layang-Layang Island.

Can any owners of Suunto dive computer care to comment on whether this "extra" level of conservatism is really necessary? Is there any study to compare the deco requirements of bottom time versus depth levels of the various brands of dive computers?
 
don't show him your computer. Take a dive log book and a set of analogue guages just in case :)

seriously though, I'm buying myself a suunto Mosquito, which I'm going to use with Analogue guages, be interested to hear what people think...

Z...
 
Yeoh Chee Weng:
Can any owners of Suunto dive computer care to comment on whether this "extra" level of conservatism is really necessary? Is there any study to compare the deco requirements of bottom time versus depth levels of the various brands of dive computers?

Hello,

This is a much discussed topic. There is a link to a chart of various different computers at http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=89592 Look on the 2nd page.

The computer thought that the stops were necessary. Obviously they were not all that necessary, because you were not injured when you violated them.

You probably put the computer into its most conservative mode by ignoring the ascent signal and by not keeping depth at its stop. It is a very conservative unit, and you really didn't help it too much there.

In general, if you are going to use a bubble model computer then you have to dive a bubble model profile. This means deep stops, ascent rates, and etc. Very different from a Haldane profile where you are expected to rapidly ascend to a shallow depth and then hang there.

So, next time you may want to:
Use a computer that has the same gas model as your buddy
Ascend when the computer complains and use the correct ascent curve
Learn a bit more about the gas model of your computer
Stay a bit deeper during your stop so the waves don't move you too much

I hope this helps,
Peter
 
pdoege:
In general, if you are going to use a bubble model computer then you have to dive a bubble model profile. This means deep stops, ascent rates, and etc. Very different from a Haldane profile where you are expected to rapidly ascend to a shallow depth and then hang there.
There is no reason to ascend rapidly to a shallow depth and hang there. The computer is nothing more than an accountant which keeps track of where you have been. WIth appropriate ascents and deep stops, Oceanic/Pelagic computers will often clear the deco obligation by the time you get to 15'.

The Suunto computer, BTW, is also a neo-Haldanian computer. the Suunto Cobra is NOT a bubble model computer. It tracks ONLY dissolved gas, and does not attempt any tracking of bubbles. On repetitive dives, it will still track only dissolved gas, but will reduce the limits according to some guesses related to your previous dive: depths over 30 meters, short SI, rapid ascent, reverse profiles, etc. Using your terms, it's a "Haldane" computer, but with varying limits. It give no more and no less credit for deep stops than does the Oceanic Veo.

-----

Most Oceanic computers use straight, unpadded PADI/DSAT limits. I dive an Oceanic, but choose not to exit the water until I've gotten a bit more margin. DCS risk vs exposure is not a sharp well defined curve, but instead rather gradually increases with increase time-depth. Just compare the original Haldane table, USN/Workmann tables, and later tables like DCIEM. Each table author thought his table was correct, and indeed they have been used with acceptable DCS risk, but they vary widely in no-stop times.

---------------
Somebody else can start the discussion on gas planning, which appears to have been lacking on this dive. Even if the dive profile wasn't preplanned beforehand, 17 minutes of ascent or stop time doesn't just pop onto the screen instantly.
 
Charlie99:
That statement is rather misleading.
There is no reason to ascend rapidly to a shallow depth and hang there. The computer is nothing more than an accountant which keeps track of where you have been. WIth appropriate ascents and deep stops, Oceanic/Pelagic computers will often clear the deco obligation by the time you get to 15'.

The Suunto computer, BTW, is also a neo-Haldanian computer. the Suunto Cobra is NOT a bubble model computer. It tracks ONLY dissolved gas, and does not attempt any tracking of bubbles. On repetitive dives, it will still track only dissolved gas, but will reduce the limits according to some guesses related to your previous dive: depths over 30 meters, short SI, rapid ascent, reverse profiles, etc. Using your terms, it's a "Haldane" computer, but with varying limits. It give no more and no less credit for deep stops than does the Oceanic Veo.

-----

Most Oceanic computers use straight, unpadded PADI/DSAT limits. I dive an Oceanic, but choose not to exit the water until I've gotten a bit more margin. DCS risk vs exposure is not a sharp well defined curve, but instead rather gradually increases with increase time-depth. Just compare the original Haldane table, USN/Workmann tables, and later tables like DCIEM. Each table author thought his table was correct, and indeed they have been used with acceptable DCS risk, but they vary widely in no-stop times.

---------------
Somebody else can start the discussion on gas planning, which appears to have been lacking on this dive. Even if the dive profile wasn't preplanned beforehand, 17 minutes of ascent or stop time doesn't just pop onto the screen instantly.


As per Suunto's website:

http://www.suunto.com/suunto/main/p...older_id=9852723697223379&bmUID=1111614802600

the Cobra is a RGBM computer. Granted the features state:

Product Features
Air, Nitrox and Gauge modes

Air integration

Suunto RGBM Model

PC interface

Perhaps, you are relying too much on computers may be an issue. Planning a dive on whatever table you prefer (NAUI's air/RGBM, PADI/DSAT, etc.) would/could/should have been the more reliable method.
 
If the dives had been planned in advance, and the computer used to make sure that you stuck to plan then it may have worked out better.

It is always hard to do this sort of planning with a buddy while you are on vacation, but it doesn't hurt to have a pre-agreed bottom time. If your buddy doesn't play along you may have to leave them, but it is their job to follow the plan too.

If your buddies computer is showing a lot of NDL and you are showing a decompression obligation then you are going to have a pissy buddy.

There isn't much you can do about that other than changing buddies and/or computers.

Peter
 
cmgmg:
the Cobra is a RGBM computer. features state:
Suunto RGBM Model.
The "Suunto RGBM" is not a bubble model. It is a neo-haldanian dissolved gas model with no parameters or estimates for any bubble related phenomena such as free gas (bubble) volume, bubble diameter, etc. The Suunto Cobra will give you credit for deep stops in exactly the same way as will the Oceanic Veo. Fast tissues will be offgassing, slow tissues will be ongassing.

The Cobra and other Suunto computers do a crude emulation of RGBM by adjusting the limits (aka M-values) of the dissolved gas model in response to the history of your previous dives. In other words, it is still a dissoved gas only (not bubble) model, but with even more conservative limits, if your previous dives were deeper than 100', had a rapid ascent, your SI was short, or the dive is a reverse profile.

Hydrospace Engineering has a true bubble model computer. Mares might have upgraded the M1, although it might be an emulation like Suuntos. Suunto will soon release a full-up RGBM computer, if it hasn't already done so recently. But the Vytek, Vyper, Cobra, Mosquito, et al are not true RGBM.

Look more closely at the manual and you can confirm my above statements.
Page 65 of the Cobra Manual: Tissue Calculation Model
• Suunto RGBM algorithm (developed by SUUNTO and Bruce R.
Wienke, BS, MS and PhD).
• 9 tissue compartments.
• Tissue compartment halftimes: 2.5, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 120, 240 and 480
minutes (on gassing). The off gassing halftimes are slowed down.
• Reduced gradient (variable) "M" values based on diving habit and
dive violations. The "M" values are tracked up to 100 hours after a
dive.


Charlie Allen
 
Mares uses full RGBM in co operation w/ Bruce Weike who developed RGBM.
 
Thank you to all those who replied. It makes great reading and helped me to understand my Cobra better and how NOT to lock up my computer again!
 
Hi Mr. Yeoh,

I’ve also just returned from Layang Layang—I was there from 3-8 March 2005; perhaps we were there at the same time? I’m sorry to hear that you lost three dives and hope that at least you got the chance to see the hammerheads.
 

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