CO Death Myth

[Dave Dillehay]

According to medical personnel involved in the cave diver fatal incident, and the autopsy, and other Medical proffesionals there is little to suggest that the "reported" conclusions are correct.


First off, the only positive way to test for CO Poisoning is a spectroscopic examination of the blood for Carboxyhemoglobin content with levels above 50% which are usually fatal (heavy smokers have 10%). Such a test was not done in this autopsy. Going further there are many, even in the Cozumel medical establishment, that find sloppiness, laziness, and pervasive errors in autopsies performed by unqualified doctors. The use of the term CO indeed may have meant excess CO2 from the "homemade" rebreather, or any other number of translation problems. To be sure, autopsies in Cozumel are a very inconclusive reference.

Yesterday we did a review of the procedures at Meridiano and found that they have experienced several CO warnings over the last 6 months and their alarm level is 7 PPM. They say that their reaction, is to shut down the compressor, check for heat, and change all filters. The air for all nitrox tanks passes through one Analox CO analyzer and into what is like a massive holding tank. It is inconceivable that just 1 killer tank could come out of Meridiano's hundreds that they do each day. On the most unlikely chance that one tank did have CO, it could only have come from Meridiano's practice of making nitrox from the partial pressure method which is mixed after the In Line CO detectors.

In summary, I just don't believe that a tank delivered by Meridiano had any part in this and I also don't believe that the cause of death was CO.



Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

 

[WSOPFAN]

According to medical personnel involved in the cave diver fatal incident, and the autopsy, and other Medical proffesionals there is little to suggest that the "reported" conclusions are correct.

So first of all you are saying the article in Por Esto that claimed the coroner concluded on the autopsy that it was due to CO poisoning was a lie and you are saying the autopsy itself is a lie.
Second you are also suggesting that his dive buddies who have posted concerning this issue are also lying about the cause of death. Maybe you could explain how the Carboxyhemoglobin level was supposedly at a lethally elevated level if no test was done? So his "pink" or "red" skin indicated nothing right?

First off, the only positive way to test for CO Poisoning is a spectroscopic examination of the blood for Carboxyhemoglobin content with levels above 50% which are usually fatal (heavy smokers have 10%). Such a test was not done in this autopsy. Going further there are many, even in the Cozumel medical establishment, that find sloppiness, laziness, and pervasive errors in autopsies performed by unqualified doctors. The use of the term CO indeed may have meant excess CO2 from the "homemade" rebreather, or any other number of translation problems. To be sure, autopsies in Cozumel are a very inconclusive reference.

You are now on record as being the 2nd shop owner who claims that autopsies on Cozumel are not only not done by professionals but routinely concluded with errors. If true that is very disconcerting.

In summary, I just don't believe that a tank delivered by Meridiano had any part in this and I also don't believe that the cause of death was CO.

I see no reason why it is not possible.......I do however think the hype about bad air on Cozumel is totally overblown. If there were such a problem it would show statistically which it does not. While people are running around posting on here about how you should have your own personal $300 detector and slapping themselves on the back for championing some supposed cause what they fail to mention is statistics. The fact is over the years there have been thousands and thousands and THOUSANDS of tanks filled and used by divers in Cozumel and how many died of bad air? What .0000000001% maybe?

I look forward to reading the explanations of all parties involved here because it appears the facts are not the actual facts in this case the only question is why.

 

[redacted]

In any event, it is not going to be part of the top 10 reasons to dive Cozumel.

 

[Dave Dillehay]

First off, you can't believe a damned thing you read in Por Esto. But we can talk directly to the people involved.

Secondly, I reported that there NEVER was a test for Carboxyhemoglobin.

Third, for the most part the way autopsies are done in Cozumel is a shame.

Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

 

[WSOPFAN]

First off, you can't believe a damned thing you read in Por Esto. But we can talk directly to the people involved.

Secondly, I reported that there NEVER was a test for Carboxyhemoglobin.

Third, for the most part the way autopsies are done in Cozumel is a shame.

Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

Yea I know Por Esto can be jaded but by all means stop beating around the bush. Was the article in part or whole a lie or not AND what is your proof?

You claim to have talked to people involved ?? Who EXACTLY.....

Yea I know you reported there was no test BUT his dive buddy claims in the A&I thread related to this a lethally elevated level which would indicate there was a test done.

The way autopsies are done might be a shame but to come on a public message board and to claim such things as you and others about what happens there is troubling. Are you now backing off the fact that they are done totally unprofessionally and just leaving it at it's a shame how they are done or are you going to explain the truth? By all means tell us if uncertified or unqualified people actually do the autopsies and if the reports are fudged and also feel free to include proof.

 

[DandyDon]

Interesting post. It's so difficult to get any information on such and there were some mysteries to the discussion in A&I.

Yesterday we did a review of the procedures at Meridiano and found that they have experienced several CO warnings over the last 6 months and their alarm level is 7 PPM. They say that their reaction, is to shut down the compressor, check for heat, and change all filters.

While somewhat reassuring, why are the alarms set at 7? Many countries that do regulate such have 3 ppm as maximum.

....I do however think the hype about bad air on Cozumel is totally overblown. If there were such a problem it would show statistically which it does not. While people are running around posting on here about how you should have your own personal $300 detector and slapping themselves on the back for championing some supposed cause what they fail to mention is statistics. The fact is over the years there have been thousands and thousands and THOUSANDS of tanks filled and used by divers in Cozumel and how many died of bad air? What .0000000001% maybe?

Gawd, I feel like a broken record here. I need to keep this on a notepad...

DAN admits that we have no idea how many scuba related drownings are CO related as usual - tanks cannot be tested for CO by authorities lacking tools, and autopsies are either inconclusive or - well. We also don't know how many CO near misses go unreported or how many cases of Travelers Flu are really subclinical CO hits. I have personally seen 17 ppm on tanks there so I don't feel a hype. Progress is being made, but I'll keep testing tanks - as well as taking a room CO monitor on any trip.

 

[Dave Dillehay]

Dear Wsopfan,

This conjecture is just like the idiocy that whet on about the Scubamau incident. There are a lot of people on the island that know, and especially about the shoddy autopsies, and they are among the mainstream Cozumel Medical establishment--I am not talking about paramedics, but prominent doctors. Yes, they tell us things that might get them very embarrassed or worse, and I am not about to name names. If you choose to call that beating around the bush then so be it...but it is the same bush that was in place for the Scubamau incident and the terrible downcurrents in Cozumle. You know how that went I presume.


Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

 

[Prop Joe]

Please forgive my ignorance on this particular accident...
Was there still breathing gas in the accident divers tank after the accident?
Did they check the tank that the diver was breathing from for CO?

 

[DandyDon]

Please forgive my ignorance on this particular accident...
Was there still breathing gas in the accident divers tank after the accident?
Did they check the tank that the diver was breathing from for CO?

Yeah, if the local authorities had the tools. They don't.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

A It is inconceivable that just 1 killer tank could come out of Meridiano's hundreds that they do each day. On the most unlikely chance that one tank did have CO, it could only have come from Meridiano's practice of making nitrox from the partial pressure method which is mixed after the In Line CO detectors.

Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

Since partial pressure nitrox fils are made, is it not conceivable that someone was in a hurry and then bypasses the air banks and topped a tank off "real Fast", as a favor or something? You know when the air banks are down?

Then after this single (hypothetical) "quick fill" was done; the compressor was switched over to continue to fill the banks? Meaning that any "bad air" would be diluted (to some extent) with the "good" air that was banked before the compressor "got hot"?

That is one way I could conceive of a single tank coming off the line with a drastically different quality of air. Is that sort of "plumbing" functional on your system? I've not seen a system which wouldn't accommodate that sort of "filling straight off the compressor".

Of course, you indicated that in-line CO detectors would have caught the problem, but it is conceivable that there was a problem with the detection system as well.

I have not been to Cozumel for a long time, but am I to understand that the local doctors are incompetent, but the guys who run the compressor systems are infallible?