Diver missing today? 03/28/12

[DiverG]

Perhaps it is time for those with an interest to start a "what signalling devices are best" thread that will get broader participation and not unduly take away from the subject of this thread? This sad event has run its course, search has ended and it appears there is little left to say.

I think Jax or someone else already posted this Best signalling equipment from the searchers point of view. It is a great thread from a searcher's point of view.

[gypsyjim]

I posted the comment by a couple of the folks who were recently adrift for over 5 hrs off the coast of Coz, that it was the small mirror that got the attention of a searching ship. The SMB's and such were not as visable from a distance as that flash of light.

I know from using a small mirror myself, to signal other hunters in the woods that they are getting close to me, and Effing up my location, that a mirror is an awfully good signaling device if there is any sunlight to work with. You can use the mirror to catch someone's attention, even when they are not looking directly at you.

Still hoping and praying for the diver and her loved ones.

[gedmondson]

1. since the lady was diving from a cruise ship, it can be surmised that she did not bring her own gear so was using rental gear which she was not familiar with and also that she was a beginner.

All assumptions... but I think most likely all true.

I hope they find her alive, but the longer it goes, the less likely.

robin

I have dove many times from cruise ships with my own equipment. I am a master diver. These kind of assumptions and blanket characterizations annoy me.

[DandyDon]

I have dove many times from cruise ships with my own equipment. I am a master diver.

Goooood. Would you agree that is uncommon for cruise ship divers, especially newbies...??

[gedmondson]

I have no idea Don. Havent done a poll. All i can tell you is that I am an avid diver, and sometimes I like to cruise! Cant imagine why that would be so different from other folks.

[JIsgren]

I did two dives while on a cruise in January and the group was a mixed bag. 3/4s of the divers were experienced, 1/4 were recently certified. 1/2 --2/3 brought own equipment and the rest rented. Cruise diving works well for me since my wife doesn't dive. This way we get to vacation together and I still get to blow bubbles.

[cicopo]

Between messages here & on Tripadvisor it looks like they had their own equipment & it was relatively new. Being both rookies & learning to use the equipment could be a contributing factor, but that applies to just about any activity from diving to photography etc.

See message 77 here.

Diver Missing - Cozumel Forum - TripAdvisor

[Mike]

What's rental gear go to do with it? Biggest differences a diver will usually find in different rental gear is an integrated weight system versus a weight belt, maybe a snap in a different location. Other than that, inflator hose on the left, push button on end to deflate, push button on side to inflate, pull to dump, reach around back to dump...

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------

What's rental gear go to do with it? Biggest differences a diver will usually find in different rental gear is an integrated weight system versus a weight belt, maybe a snap in a different location. Other than that, inflator hose on the left, push button on end to deflate, push button on side to inflate, pull to dump, reach around back to dump...

I'd rather face the unpopular reality - there are a large number of people diving, especially I've noticed in the Caribbean, who are over-weight, out of shape, medically questionable, old aged, too feeble to pull themselves up a ladder with full gear on... etc... people who dive once every 3 years and do so buying a ride on the cheapest dive op they can find, and plenty of people who just don't treat the sport as potentially dangerous a one that it is. - this adds way more to the risk of dives then rental equipment.

As an example - I've read post after post with in the Bonaire section about descriptions of how people who do shore diving with bad knees, backs, weak upper body strength, who can't carry their equipment etc... and they describe their personal work-around-methods of dealing with it to handle the surf or unstable ground. It's wonderful that they have a love for diving and want to do anything they can to keep at it, but I read between the lines and fear for them, all it's going to take is some sh*t to hit the fan unexpectantly and they are going to have a ton of trouble dealing with the situation due to their medical issues, age, infirmity or lack of conditioning. They managed to get themselves in the water, and normally an average dive will not be a problem, but they've cut their margin for error so slim that they probably have put themselves in danger if anything out of the ordinary happens.

How many times have any of us been on a night dive and discover a diver with only 10 dives under his/her belt going on their first night dive? They've barely figured anything out and now they are adding darkness to the mix? That's so dangerous to me.

How many deaths in the accident forum are reported where the same question can always be asked -- "Where was the buddy?"

I see this sport being taken way too lightly by way too many involved in it and all it takes is one new element or risk to be introduced and they are now task overloaded with no margin of safety, no room for error and are at great risk, and then they want to blame the DM for not covering every minute contingency for them, instead of taking some responsibility for themselves, sometimes they report back about it and it's a lesson learned and sometimes they disappear and people are left to blame the dive master.

I feel there is way too quick a tendency for people to look to the dive op or the DM for blame when 100% of it rests solidly with the victim and their dive buddy. Nobody wants to face it, it seems harsh, its too easy to blame the DM, he should of done this or that, he could have done this or that, the truth is the diver shouldn't need the DM for anything other than as a tour guide. If you can't do the dive yourself without any DM with you, you have a lot of room for improvement and need gains of experience, and those are things you should be working toward, if you aren't and you're of the mindset that you don't need to work harder and keep learning, and diving to you is like a Disney Park experience and the dive op and dive master is your safety net, well I don't know what to say.

[DandyDon]

Between messages here & on Tripadvisor it looks like they had their own equipment & it was relatively new. Being both rookies & learning to use the equipment could be a contributing factor, but that applies to just about any activity from diving to photography etc.

See message 77 here.

Diver Missing - Cozumel Forum - TripAdvisor

Thanks. I'm quoting this on the Accident thread.

[gypsyjim]

I did two dives while on a cruise in January and the group was a mixed bag. 3/4s of the divers were experienced, 1/4 were recently certified. 1/2 --2/3 brought own equipment and the rest rented. Cruise diving works well for me since my wife doesn't dive. This way we get to vacation together and I still get to blow bubbles.

Face it, the cost of an occasional cruise is far less than the cost one might incur by trying to replace the non diving spouse with one who does. If you are married to someone who does not enjoy the sport, or can not dive, it is pretty cool that you can still share a vacation where at least you can get wet, and they are not bored out of their gourd.

NOT that a cruise ship holds any interest for me.

Luckily Colleen enjoys diving too, even if she is not as avid or dedicated to the sport as I am.

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

What's rental gear go to do with it? Biggest differences a diver will usually find in different rental gear is an integrated weight system versus a weight belt, maybe a snap in a different location. Other than that, inflator hose on the left, push button on end to deflate, push button on side to inflate, pull to dump, reach around back to dump...

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------



Let's face the unpopular reality here - there are a large number of people diving, especially in the caribbean who are over-weight, out of shape, medically questionable, old aged, too feeble to pull themselves up a ladder with full gear on... etc... people who dive once every 3 years and do so buying a ride on the cheapest dive op they can find, people who don't treat the sport as a potentially dangerous one - adds way more to the risk level then rental equipment.

For example - How many posts have I read in the Bonaire section about descriptions of people who do shore diving with bad knees, backs, week upper body strength, you fill in the blank and they describe their personal trimuphant method of dealing with surf or unstable ground. It's wonderful that they have a love for diving and want to do anything they can to keep at it, but face it, all it's going to take is some sh*t to hit the fan unexpectantly and they are going to have a ton of trouble dealing with the situation due to their medical issues and the work arounds that got them into the water and now are in trouble. This sport is taken way too lightly by way too many involved in it and all it takes is one new element or risk to be introduced and they are now task overloaded and at great risk.

How many times have any of us been on a night dive and discover a diver with only 10 dives under his/her belt going on their first night dive? They've barely figured anything out and now they are adding darkness to the mix? It's crazy.

How many deaths in the accident forum are reported with the common denominator of the question asked "Where was the buddy?" I feel there is way too quick a tendency for people to look to the dive op or the DM for blame when 100% of it rests solidly with the victim and their dive buddy. Nobody wants to face it, it seems harsh, its too easy to blame the DM, he should of done this or that, he could have done this or that, the horrible truth is the diver shouldn't need the DM for anything other than as a tour guide. If you can't do the dive yourself without any DM with you, you have a lot of room for improvement and need gains of experience and those are all things that the buck stops with the diver.

For many years I did rent mostly, as I was traveling and just returning to diving, and only occasionally at that. I was not prepared to invest a lot in new gear, until I had some idea which way I wanted to go.

It seems that my horse collar buoyancy, J valve, and single regulator were no longer acceptable on the dive boats, for some odd reason.

__________________________________________


And Mike, I still feel that there is an expected level of caution, oversight and care of the divers under the care of a DM, in the type of diving scenarios such as we see in Coz.

I am not a DM, but I believe that any time I am leading any other divers, buddied directly with me or not, I have placed myself in a responsible position. I feel it is inherently a part of being in any group of divers, to watch over all the divers in your group, and that if I were being paid to shepherd a group of divers, especially those I knew to be less experienced, I would feel much more responsible.
In many cases I believe the law would see a similar responsibility by a paid group leader leading a group of less experience people in a hazardous enterprise. I am not a lawyer either, so I could be wrong.

Is the buddy responsible? Certainly we all are, but not every diver is as well trained in safety as we would like, or as experienced or is going to be really able to do what it takes to rescue a struggling diver! Hopefully a paid DM is both rescue trained and able to spot problem before it becomes real serious issue.

In the end you are correct in believing that it is each of us divers, ourselves, who in the must understand and assume the risks of our sport, and hopefully find buddies who feel the same.