Saba - be careful

[BDSC]

Thanks for the thoughts. I am disputing the charge and I have warned Scouts Place that I am going to dispute it as well, They have had full notice.

As to whether or not my son is too young to dive, that I believe is a personal choice. Padi rules, as best I can tell, permit him to dive deep as long as he is with me, once he turns 12 (he was not permitted at age 10 or 11). This is not relevant to the dive operator however.

The point is, Scout's Place was not comfortable taking my son down to 100 feet, that is their prerogative. I would not even want them taking me if they were not fully comfortable. I emailed them before I came, however, that my son was 12 and that we wanted to dive deep. If they had an issue with that, the time to tell me was before I came to Saba. Their error was saying, in writing, "come to Saba and dive as deep with your son as you feel comfortable and we have no problem with his 12 year old age" before I booked the trip. They only changed their tune once I had flown to Saba and paid them for the dive. At this point, I was totally at their mercy. This is unprofessional. Whether you approve of 12 year old's diving 100 feet or not, it does not justify making promises to do something and then not doing it once you have been paid and forced your client's hand (assuming no new information became available).

Additionally, the dive shop had no business suggesting that my son appeared like he was being forced to dive. Besides the fact that they were wrong, and my son loves diving and is pushing me to do it more with him, the owners were way out of line. They were trying to deflect the blame from their own poor business policy.

I totally agree with you. The point here is the dive shop told you one thing and then didn't follow through with what they said. They knew he was 12 when they replied to you so they are in the wrong. I feel like you. They just wanted the money and then changed the rules after they got it. Don't pay them and never do business with them again. I hate liars.

 

[Gwen1011]

To be mislead is very frustrating, I agree. However, this thread would make me want to check that op out if I were going to Saba. It sounds as if they're at least paying attention to their customers. Some dive ops take your card and cash and you're off, qualified or not.

Gwen

 

[fatherandsondiver]

Nice to read all the replies. On my greater premise, that this dive operator falsely represented itself, I hold my ground. They could not have been clearer - come dive with us with your 12 year old and depth is no issue. There is no way to justify the change in attitude once they have my captive business. They have a right to whatever policy they want, but should not misrepresent themselves to lure customers. BTW, their advance email went so far as to say that they checked with the divemaster (mentioned by name) so its hard to assume this was just a business person's innocent mistake.

As to the consensus that 12 is too young to dive deep, it would be great if I could find some good UNBIASED information on the subject. There are many links cited, but this seems akin to the sites that suggest that vaccinations for MMR causes autism. The claim is absurd, but supported all over the web. I would love to read a true honest medical analysis of the physical risk. The emotional stuff is off base, my son is quite mature. Most who have dived with him agree that he is exceptional. On the physical risk, is a 12 year old more susceptible to permanent injury from deep dives, I do not know.

 

[adurso]

Nice to read all the replies. *SNIP*As to the consensus that 12 is too young to dive deep, it would be great if I could find some good UNBIASED information on the subject. There are many links cited, but this seems akin to the sites that suggest that vaccinations for MMR causes autism. The claim is absurd, but supported all over the web. I would love to read a true honest medical analysis of the physical risk. *SNIP*. On the physical risk, is a 12 year old more susceptible to permanent injury from deep dives, I do not know.

Somebody posted a link to Dr. Campbell's site, he is known as "scubadoc" great guy, lots of research and thought in his writings.

The reason there is little information out there is due to the lack of available pre-teens to experiment with. Most of our information has been gathered by subjecting adults to some horrible circumstances. No one (I think) will stick a 12 year old in a chamber and compress them to various depths for various times repeatedly measuring bone loss each time.

The medical community always will err ont he side of caution, as will many adults when expressing an opinion. The issues of bone growth and density loss are generally enough to minimize depth.

The prevailing thought is "better safe than sorry"

On the other hand you are responsible for your child and yourself, so do what you feel is best and ignore the scuba nannies, as it seems you were not seeking an opinion on the issue of your 12 year diving.....

And there are plenty of us around who were diving that deep at that age who have not had anything horrible occur

 

[Jim Lapenta]

12 yr olds are limited to a max depth of 70 ft IF THEY HAVE THEIR Jr Advanced. Had the DM taken him to 80 ft it would be a violation of standards. An instructor could not have taken him that deep. If you had an issue with this why didn't you ditch the DM and dive the profile you wanted to. What exactly is his experience and where? For that matter what is yours? Why would you even take the chance? And why are your only posts to come on here and trash an op that did the right thing and minimized their risk. Why did they refuse to take him? Did they see something in him that made them uneasy? We are not getting the whole story here by a long shot. I agree that evidence is not conclusive at this point but I'm guessing that they see thousands of divers thru their op every year. Something made them uneasy or caused them to change their mind. If you are that confident in his abilities don't use a DM. You be responsible for him and yourself. Your profile says you've been diving over ten years. Why do you need a DM anyway other than for a little local advice? Just what is his deepest dive to date and what is yours?

 

[Walter]

On my greater premise, that this dive operator falsely represented itself, I hold my ground.

I have no reason to doubt it happened exactly as you described. Misleading customers is wrong! That should never have happened. They should have told you their policy up front. I have absolutely no argument with you on that point.

As to the consensus that 12 is too young to dive deep, it would be great if I could find some good UNBIASED information on the subject.

It's kinda like diving while pregnant. No one is going to use pregnant women and their unborn children as test subjects to find out if diving can cause birth defects. No one is going to use small children as test subjects to see if deep diving or frequent diving will cause developmental problems. There's no a whole lots that is really known about either issue. I don't have a problem with that. As adurso said, there are plenty of kids who dived deep and never had any problems. OTOH, there are others who do have serious medical problems that are believed to be a direct result of lots of diving during their preteen and teen years. We do know that lots of exposure to nitrogen under pressure can damage bones even in adults. While we may get a great deal of enjoyment from diving with our children, we can get that same enjoyment on shallow dives with them and it's not worth the possibility of injuring our kids. As a parent, I decided not to take a change with my son's well being on the unknown. It's better to be safe than sorry when caring for children.

 

[Web Monkey]

Nice to read all the replies. On my greater premise, that this dive operator falsely represented itself, I hold my ground. They could not have been clearer - come dive with us with your 12 year old and depth is no issue. There is no way to justify the change in attitude once they have my captive business. They have a right to whatever policy they want, but should not misrepresent themselves to lure customers.

They refused to take your 12 year old on an unsafe dive. They should be thanked. If someone told you something different, it's too bad, but you still got the right outcome.

No matter what your opinion of him is, your kid is still 12 and doesn't belong at 80'.

BTW, their advance email went so far as to say that they checked with the divemaster (mentioned by name) so its hard to assume this was just a business person's innocent mistake.

Irrelevant. Deep dives are an unnecessary risk for kids. When he's 20 and walks with a permanent limp, would you want to be the one to explain that it's because you thought he was "mature"?

As to the consensus that 12 is too young to dive deep, it would be great if I could find some good UNBIASED information on the subject.

You won't find any. For some reason, people are generally unwilling to use their children for medical experiments.

There are many links cited, but this seems akin to the sites that suggest that vaccinations for MMR causes autism.

If you don't give your kid an MMR shot because you're worried about autism, he might get any of these awful diseases. If you don't take him on an 80' dive until he's older absolutely nothing will happen except that you'll be annoyed.

He's a kid. Take him to Bonaire, point him to the house reef at Buddy's and he'll be happy all week in less than 30'. This obsession with depth is an adult concept.

Someone was watching out for your kid. Be happy.

Terry

 

[BDSC]

12 yr olds are limited to a max depth of 70 ft IF THEY HAVE THEIR Jr Advanced. Had the DM taken him to 80 ft it would be a violation of standards. An instructor could not have taken him that deep. If you had an issue with this why didn't you ditch the DM and dive the profile you wanted to. What exactly is his experience and where? For that matter what is yours? Why would you even take the chance? And why are your only posts to come on here and trash an op that did the right thing and minimized their risk. Why did they refuse to take him? Did they see something in him that made them uneasy? We are not getting the whole story here by a long shot. I agree that evidence is not conclusive at this point but I'm guessing that they see thousands of divers thru their op every year. Something made them uneasy or caused them to change their mind. If you are that confident in his abilities don't use a DM. You be responsible for him and yourself. Your profile says you've been diving over ten years. Why do you need a DM anyway other than for a little local advice? Just what is his deepest dive to date and what is yours?

Why the attack on the OP. The guy was just sharing a story about how a dive operator told him one thing and then shifted gears. Do you know the whole story? Since we're not getting it maybe you could fill in the blanks with your vast knowledge of the situation. And the guy is a "New Member" so all new members start out with only a few posts. Hopefully you'll wake up tomorrow in a better mood.

 

[Draq]

FWIW, my 12 year old's limit is 40'. If I'm his buddy, and I usually am, then that is my limit for that dive and I have to save deep dives for another time. It's all good. We typically shore dive so no one is there to enforce it but us, but that is the PADI limit (I believe) and what I, his mom (diver) and his pediatrician (diver) and he agreed was reasonable based on current literature.

But....if the dive ops said okay and you flew there and paid and they then changed their mind...that is wrong. No matter what is safe or isn't, the dive op should have addressed it upfront. If you omitted some fact or his log didn't match what you said his experience was, then that is a different matter, but that isn't what you are saying.

On a related note, I have found a lot of hostility against young divers (my 15 y.o. and 12 y.o dive). I have heard and read a lot of comments like "not on my boat" "not with me" "not below 25 feet" and similar. None is based on solid science or industry policies or certification rules, just personal opinions. I suspect some of them also won't dive with old people, overweight people, etc. I just chalk it up to some neurosis, lack of knowledge or prejudice and move on. I always make sure to tell dive ops and others that we have kids who dive, so they can back out early and avoid problems and embarrassment later. It sounds like you did that, though.

Maybe one of their divemasters was okay with the idea (the one you spoke to first) while another has problems with the issue? If I go to Saba with the family, we'll keep it in mind.

 

[adurso]

I have no reason to doubt it happened exactly as you described. Misleading customers is wrong! That should never have happened. They should have told you their policy up front. I have absolutely no argument with you on that point.



It's kinda like diving while pregnant. No one is going to use pregnant women and their unborn children as test subjects to find out if diving can cause birth defects. No one is going to use small children as test subjects to see if deep diving or frequent diving will cause developmental problems. There's no a whole lots that is really known about either issue. I don't have a problem with that. As adurso said, there are plenty of kids who dived deep and never had any problems. OTOH, there are others who do have serious medical problems that are believed to be a direct result of lots of diving during their preteen and teen years. We do know that lots of exposure to nitrogen under pressure can damage bones even in adults. While we may get a great deal of enjoyment from diving with our children, we can get that same enjoyment on shallow dives with them and it's not worth the possibility of injuring our kids. As a parent, I decided not to take a change with my son's well being on the unknown. It's better to be safe than sorry when caring for children.

I had forgotten Walter that you do know of someone who has significant issues that may be directly correlated with early deep diving, do you not?

I did neglect the other side of the coin that you mention, that there are those who may have been injured.