Oregon woman dies in Washington diving accident

[waynne fowler]

What you are saying is, in theory, the basis for any sensible rescue attempt. But the victim was in 20 feet of water ... an adequately trained diver should have been able, in my opinion, to free dive down 20 feet and recover an inert diver, and 400 psi is more than enough for a quick bounce to 20 feet. Granted that viability could effect this.

That opinion, would in all but the very smallest handfull of cases, most likely result in another family paying for a funeral. Do it the right way or just don't do it at all. Its very simple stuff. The time for heroics is in the set up and execution of your dives. Once its a rescue or recovery, only a fool adds risk to an already out of hand situation.

 

[Thalassamania]

Wayne, the key word is "adequately" trained which by definition means no funerals. I' be hard pressed to style a 20 ft recovery of an unconscious diver as "heroics"

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wayne, the key word is "adequately" trained which by definition means no funerals. I' be hard pressed to style a 20 ft recovery of an unconscious diver as "heroics"

I believe Waynne's point is that the dive buddy was obviously not up to your standards of adequacy (who is?). Nor was he likely to be in any sort of emotional state to be going back underwater. Such an action would not have been prudent, and the reality is that having done so would have most likely only produced two dead people that day.

The first rule of rescue is don't create more victims ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lamont]

Wayne, the key word is "adequately" trained which by definition means no funerals. I' be hard pressed to style a 20 ft recovery of an unconscious diver as "heroics"

20 ft up here in 6 ft of viz or less and 150 psi and i'm not going to attempt a recovery.

Keep in mind that almost nobody up here freedives because often you need to get down below 60 feet to get out of the pea soup. If I ditched my gear I wouldn't have any idea how much weight it would take to allow me to freedive in 'snorkeling' gear up here in my drysuit. I know that trying to freedive down to 20 feet in the cenotes in my 5mm wetsuit with no weightbelt wasn't working very well...

And fixating on this is fixating on the complete ass-end of this accident chain. I'm not going to put more than an ounce of thought into fixing this problem, because I'm never going to put myself in this position.

 

[Thalassamania]

I believe Waynne's point is that the dive buddy was obviously not up to your standards of adequacy (who is?).

Any of the two thousand odd divers that I've trained over the years, any number more that were trained by Austin at Berkeley, Stewart at Scripps, Somers at Michigan, Hendricks at Puerto Rico, Mount at RSMAS ... perhaps you? We're well above 10,001 and have barely begun the list.

Nor was he likely to be in any sort of emotional state to be going back underwater. Such an action would not have been prudent, and the reality is that having done so would have most likely only produced two dead people that day.

I suspect that you're right, but that does indite the average training available today

The first rule of rescue is don't create more victims ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

While I can understand that sentiment, there's a saying here in Hawaii that is closer to my heart: "Eddie would go!"

20 ft up here in 6 ft of viz or less and 150 psi and I'm not going to attempt a recovery.

Frankly I would, but I do understand why you might not and given past actions no one in their right mind would question either your resolve or willingness to put it on the line

Keep in mind that almost nobody up here freedives because often you need to get down below 60 feet to get out of the pea soup. If I ditched my gear I wouldn't have any idea how much weight it would take to allow me to freedive in 'snorkeling' gear up here in my drysuit. I know that trying to freedive down to 20 feet in the cenotes in my 5mm wetsuit with no weightbelt wasn't working very well...

That we could solve in about 20 minutes in a pool.

2And fixating on this is fixating on the complete ass-end of this accident chain. I'm not going to put more than an ounce of thought into fixing this problem, because I'm never going to put myself in this position.

It's a chain, that should have been broken long before we have to face these sorts of questions But the elements of that chain point the same place as the final issues we are lookin at: the level of open water diver training.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Eddie would go.

Reading through this thread, and the other one started by TSandM, I keep questioning how much of this accident was related to:

1. Lack of planning or poor planning,
2. Poor gas management, or not paying attention during the dive,
3. Lack of adequate training, or not remembering training, leading to 1. and 2. above,
4. Compounded by gross over-weighting and possible equipment issues (unable to ditch weights).

It is the over-weighting issue that has me really concerned.

Bob talked about it a bit, and probably nailed it: Carrying too much weight to compensate for a skill problem.

But in this case where the diver was unable, even with assistance, to stay at the surface with an EMPTY tank, there must have been significant over-weighting.

And this type of accident seems to be all to common (inability to remain on the surface in an emergency, followed by drowning).

If the diver is significantly over-weighted, and I see this sometimes even here in Hawaii with our much thinner exposure suits, then I think it goes back to a training issue.

Basic OW students should not be leaving class that badly overweighted, thinking they are "properly" weighted... something is being missed with these students.

Best wishes.

 

[gcbryan]

There are more through training problems around and I'm sure they have fewer accidents such as this. However, unless you require everyone to go through such a training program including rejecting those who can't pass then you will continue to have accidents of the sort this post refers to.

That is a value judgment...shall we have an open or closed system for scuba diving. Now we have an open system. To learn to fly a plane you enter into a closed system. This is mainly because a plane crash will "impact" more than just the pilot. Most recreational activities such as skiing, hiking, climbing, and scuba are open systems. As long as that is the case you will have accidents.

Most accidents are by those at the extremes. As long as you have an open system you can't really eliminate the extremes. Most people, even those who have gone through the most cursory training still manage to check their gauges and arrive back at the surface with air in their tank. Those who don't have this simple life preserving instinct will die. It's that simple.

I would certainly like to see more of the better training programs and fewer of the abbreviated programs as would most people. That's another subject however.

 

[masterof0]

If the diver is significantly over-weighted, and I see this sometimes even here in Hawaii with our much thinner exposure suits, then I think it goes back to a training issue.

Basic OW students should not be leaving class that badly overweighted, thinking they are "properly" weighted... something is being missed with these students.

Best wishes.

I totally agree with this. Being a relatively new diver I can tell you that my instructor had intentionally overweighted me to assist with "keeping me on the bottom." Following OW, for several dives, I continued to use this as a foundation for my weighting. It wasn't until about 10 dives in that I took the time out to actually spend getting my weighting adjusted properly. Of the people that were in my class, I am the only one so far that has taken the time to do this. I have also been on several charters and dive in an area that is well used for training and from what I see, this is common for newer divers to do this, either through lack of acknowledgement/reinforcement from the instructor, or just because as a new diver you perceive this to be advantageous in the beginning when it really is not (lack of knowledge). It wasn't until I took the time to do this that I really understood the value of proper weighting and how much easier it made maintaining my buoyancy.

If nothing else, I think this should be one of the first things instructors do after completing the checkout dives so that newly certified divers can truly experience the value of proper weighting. Experience makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Thalassamania]

Diving is supposed to be a similarly "closed" system. Instructors are supposed to certify that students have met a set of standards "mastered" a set of skills ... at least that's the lie that the industry feeds to those interested in learning to dive. But now many of your seem to be saying, "opps, just kidding, didn't realy mean that, ta-ta, best of luck ... just don't forget, no matter what you were lead to believe ... we're not responsible."

I can't, I woun't, buy into that.

 

[gcbryan]

Diving is supposed to be a similarly "closed" system. Instructors are supposed to certify that students have met a set of standards "mastered" a set of skills ... at least that's the lie that the industry feeds to those interested in learning to dive. But now many of your seem to be saying, "opps, just kidding, didn't realy mean that, ta-ta, best of luck ... just don't forget, no matter what you were lead to believe ... we're not responsible."

I can't, I woun't, buy into that.

Nor would I if I were an instructor. It's also why there are many independent instructors (like Bob) who teach above the standards and have other sources of income as their primary source of livelihood.

It is truly tragic that accidents like this happen since they are entirely preventable but good training goes hand in hand with good judgment.