Challenging a specialty

[rescue15]

Thalassamania, That's what I am talking about. You are the first one I have ever encountered that will admit something like I am asking is possible. Everybody else says ...no way, You can't possibly know enough about XYZ to dive safely without taking the class.

Like I have said before, even a profession as steeped in tradition as firefighting has learned there is somehing to be gained by giving credit for life experience.

Steve

 

[DevonDiver]

So why do I need to spend hundreds of dollars to get a card that says I can do tech diving when my logbook already prooves it? I have never been refused a deep dive in the North Atlantic because of the card or lack of card in my pocket - no matter what charter I was on.

I was refused a penetration dive of the SP Grove in FL last year because of this. The dive operation didn't even want to look at my log book...only my PADI Rescue card.

Seems entirely rational to me that you were refused diving.

If you haven't done a tech course, then you aren't a tech diver. A history of going deep and using 'tech gear' doesn't make you a tech diver.

If you are too cheapskate to pay for the proper training...and learn the things that you need to learn...then WHY would any technical divemaster risk their lives by taking you into those situations?

I don't dive technical with anyone..unless I've done a check dive with them previously. I wouldn't take you on a tech dive because you may lack the key training and mindset to be a safe dive partner on such dives. As such, you may put my life in danger.

 

[DevonDiver]

Thalassamania, That's what I am talking about. You are the first one I have ever encountered that will admit something like I am asking is possible. Everybody else says ...no way, You can't possibly know enough about XYZ to dive safely without taking the class.

Like I have said before, even a profession as steeped in tradition as firefighting has learned there is somehing to be gained by giving credit for life experience.

Steve

However good you may THINK you are....if you are asking someone to tech dive with you...they want to see evidence that you are not going to be a liability to them underwater.

being cheapskate on the cost of a course, hardly demonstrates the right mindset and ethos to be a technical diver.

 

[Thalassamania]

Seems entirely rational to me that you were refused diving.

If you haven't done a tech course, then you aren't a tech diver. A history of going deep and using 'tech gear' doesn't make you a tech diver.

I guess I'm not a "tech" diver. I've taught deep courses, mix courses, decompression courses, been rather deep, published articles on tech diving, was an Editor for aquaCorps, own two rebreathers and two scoots, been quoted and indexed in books on tech diving, I was in the room when the term technical dicin was coined, I was program chair for the first two "Tek" conferences, but ... guess what? I never took a tech course. So what? Big woop. Cards and course don't mean anything, being able to actually do it is what counts and most of the instructors I know who share your attiude about cards ... well ... usually they can't.

However good you may THINK you are....if you are asking someone to tech dive with you...they want to see evidence that you are not going to be a liability to them underwater.

And a plastic card can do all that? Most of the technical divers I know would laugh at anyone who pulled out a certification card.

being cheapskate on the cost of a course, hardly demonstrates the right mindset and ethos to be a technical diver.

Taking the course likely demonstrates a lack of the right stuff needed to secure a good mentor which is the only way to actually get from here to there. With luck and hard work sometimes a course will develop a diver to the point that can then secure a mentor, but it is not the course that made them a tech diver, the course just opened the door.

 

[Doppler]

I guess I'm not a "tech" diver...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Right, I guess not!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I've met Gary Gentile, John Chatterton, Richie Kohler, and spent a good deal of time with Bernie Chowdury at a recent show. None of those guys had any kind ot technical cert when they did their first dives on the Doria. That said I would not have taken up any kind of tech stuff with out the training I have gotten so far but I did not do it for a card. I've used mixes other than the standard helitrox mix by gaining experience through diving. You also don't say just what kind of technical dive on the grove you were doing. Was it in doubles, involved extensive penetration, etc.

And I don't understand the PADI rescue diver card requirement. THat has less than nothing to do with doing a tech dive as one can get that card with only one dive deeper than 60feet. What op denied you the dive? There has to be more than meets the eye here. Who were you diving with as a buddy? I'd like to know what op did not want to see your log so I can avoid them in the future. Know that I will contact them to see just what their policy is on experience in lieu of training to reference for my students. If you showed up with doubles, stages, O2 etc and had no log book then I;d be wary. But if you show up with a well worn log, obvious competency in what you are talking about, and would be willing to do a checkout with me ( at my expense of course) and did ok I;d let you dive.

I normally do not accept AOW students I did not train without an interview of some kind and their logbook. I do need to see their ow card but I will not just say ok I'll do your AOW just do these few exercises in the book and show up at the dive site. I for one require 6-8 hours of classroom and a skill eval if you have less than 10 dives post ow cert before I'll agree to let you take the AOW course from me. And I've seen DM cards on dive boats and had to buddy up with these guys who talk a good game but "don't do deep dives, or low vis, or cold water", swim vertically, and use their hands most of the time. So the card means squat. Please post the op that would not let you dive and your dive plan so we have real info to go on.

 

[Kingpatzer]

So why do I need to spend hundreds of dollars to get a card that says I can do tech diving when my logbook already prooves it?

Give me a few hours and I'll create a log book that "proves" anything you want it to.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: what the owner says goes.

It may be about insurance, and it often is. If a charter is part of a dive program that has personal liability insurance for the DMs and Instructors through an agency, then making sure that all divers are properly certified may well be part of the insurance contract.

You state that you've never been denied a dive in the north Atlantic by any charter. But it also sounds like you've got a lot of dives in that region and probably know many captains quite well. You may well have name recognition that carries a good deal of weight in your specific community.

I doubt very much that I could call up and say "Hey, my name is Joe, I'd like to go dive at 210' next week. I promise I'm qualified, I give you my word! How much?" and get a particularly good reception.

 

[DevonDiver]

I guess I'm not a "tech" diver. I've taught deep courses, mix courses, decompression courses, been rather deep, published articles on tech diving, was an Editor for aquaCorps, own two rebreathers and two scoots, been quoted and indexed in books on tech diving, I was in the room when the term technical dicin was coined, I was program chair for the first two "Tek" conferences, but ... guess what? I never took a tech course. So what? Big woop.

But you do have credentials, don't you Mr Ego? Lots of credentials in scientific diving etc etc etc. You turn up at a boat...and you have something to validate yourself with.

You taught courses...same as taking them. You understand the programme...

Anyone can dive...any depth...any time. As long as they get away with it, then they feel they are 'qualified' to do that diving. As long as everything goes perfectly, then they are the perfect diver.

What OP 'Mr DIY Dive God' lacks though, is the formal training and reaction conditioning to get his ass out of trouble should something go wrong...and you don't learn that from 'getting by' on perfect dives.

Cards and course don't mean anything, being able to actually do it is what counts and most of the instructors I know who share your attiude about cards ... well ... usually they can't.

You have an amazing habit of generalising all instructors, whilst insulting the greater majority of professional divers...just to boost your own ego.

The diver must be qualified. Not necessarily 'certified'. However, apart from dinosaurs like yourself (ooops, I meant pioneers), most modern tech divers are the product of a formal training programme. That gives them qualification...then they gain experience. They qualification shapes their experience - it is the foundation on what they build.

Without 'qualification' then those divers (the op) may have pretty rotten 'foundations' at best. Who knows? Who cares? Only those stupid enough to trust their lives to him on a dive......

And a plastic card can do all that? Most of the technical divers I know would laugh at anyone who pulled out a certification card.

Really? Well, they must love living in their own little cliques then. Aside from a few 'major names' in the game... I am sure most of us need to show some credentials when buying helium away from home turf....

Taking the course likely demonstrates a lack of the right stuff needed to secure a good mentor which is the only way to actually get from here to there.

So...of the thousands of divers you taught (as stated above)...none of them demonstrated the right stuff?

Why do you train people....when you are not an advocate of training?

Hypocritical surely??

With luck and hard work sometimes a course will develop a diver to the point that can then secure a mentor, but it is not the course that made them a tech diver, the course just opened the door.

On this we do not disagree.

 

[smellzlikefish]

Devon;

Just to clarify, scientific diving is a very specific realm taught by a separate group of people often associated with universities or NOAA. It requires a specific type of training that it doesn't sound like Thalassmania has had. That said, I would agree with many of Thalassmania's points. Here we call the people who go out collecting certs and wearing them on their sleeve every time they go out diving "badge collectors" because it seems like they are more concerned with collecting those piece of plastic (used to come with patches) than diving. I dive enough that the dive shops around here know me and don't ask for a cert card when I fill tanks, mainly because they remember me from past dives, and I'm not even a tech diver. To me, getting the cards represents the business end of things. It is usually pretty obvious before a dive who's going to be able to handle themselves underwater. MHO.

 

[rjack321]

Thalassamania, That's what I am talking about. You are the first one I have ever encountered that will admit something like I am asking is possible. Everybody else says ...no way, You can't possibly know enough about XYZ to dive safely without taking the class.

Like I have said before, even a profession as steeped in tradition as firefighting has learned there is somehing to be gained by giving credit for life experience.

Steve

If you have the skills, you shouldn't have any problems getting a card(s). To get into cave sites or do tech charters outside your home waters or whatever. Talk to some of the instructors in your area who know you (I would guess they do since your such an active diver). Do a checkout dive, correct your deficiencies (don't delude yourself thinking you don't have any), get whatever certifications are appropriate.

If you don't have the skills, neither your logbook nor any amount of plastic cards have any value, especially underwater.