I've got NAUI's phone numbers and am planning to call them first thing Monday morning. I'll definitely update once I get a response. Hopefully they'll allow the referral. I also plan on making them aware of some of his teaching practices. With this whole discussion, a few suspect things have come up. I definitely wouldn't want his future students to have to go through this (speaking of which...after we finished our pool session, he's started another class!). I'm also trying to make back up plans to make sure I get to dive. Thankfully he's not the only one who can certify me!
Can an OW instructor deny referral?
- Thread starter jenth
- Start date
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I was able to get in touch with Randy Shaw at the NAUI HQ. He was very fair and understood my situation. Here are a few specific questions I asked him:
- Can an instructor deny referral to another NAUI instructor? Basically, yes, there's nothing that forces the instructor to grant the referral. Also, NAUI does recommend that students finish the class with the instructor they started with.
- Can the instructor make us sign agreement forms at the beginning of class (I signed that I would complete all sections of the class with Tom...not knowing it would really matter)? Yes, nothing stops him from doing so. And if I had disagreed with it, I could've found another instructor.
- Is the instructor required to sign off on items as they are passed? Or can they sign off on everything at the end? They can sign off on everything at the end. Signing off on the pool session and written exam in the NAUI logbook basically equates to a referral... But they should be filling out the student training record as things are completed.
Randy was incredibly helpful and understanding. He did say that my student training record (folder with my info, medical release form, exam score, etc) is my record. It should be fully updated and he should make it available to me. I can then take that to an instructor who can use his/her own discretion to decide if he will accept that so I won't have to retake my pool and written exams.
So I've called the instructor and passed all this info along. I've left a message and am waiting to hear back. Hopefully I'll be able to pick up my records today. I already have another instructor who I'm pretty sure will accept the records as proof of my work. Once I have that, I'll probably do one pool session with this instructor, head to the ocean, and be certified!
Thanks to everyone for the posts!
- Can an instructor deny referral to another NAUI instructor? Basically, yes, there's nothing that forces the instructor to grant the referral. Also, NAUI does recommend that students finish the class with the instructor they started with.
- Can the instructor make us sign agreement forms at the beginning of class (I signed that I would complete all sections of the class with Tom...not knowing it would really matter)? Yes, nothing stops him from doing so. And if I had disagreed with it, I could've found another instructor.
- Is the instructor required to sign off on items as they are passed? Or can they sign off on everything at the end? They can sign off on everything at the end. Signing off on the pool session and written exam in the NAUI logbook basically equates to a referral... But they should be filling out the student training record as things are completed.
Randy was incredibly helpful and understanding. He did say that my student training record (folder with my info, medical release form, exam score, etc) is my record. It should be fully updated and he should make it available to me. I can then take that to an instructor who can use his/her own discretion to decide if he will accept that so I won't have to retake my pool and written exams.
So I've called the instructor and passed all this info along. I've left a message and am waiting to hear back. Hopefully I'll be able to pick up my records today. I already have another instructor who I'm pretty sure will accept the records as proof of my work. Once I have that, I'll probably do one pool session with this instructor, head to the ocean, and be certified!
Thanks to everyone for the posts!
ScubaSarus
Guest
Are there any lakes nearby if the weather makes the ocean too dangerous for OW dives. I did some of my AOW in a lake because the ocean was too rough and it was near the private instructors house.
Referrals are a common way for most people to get certified these days - why spend vacation time in a classroom while it can happen at home. Dive shops will charge slightly more for the class/pool if they know it is a referral, so they shouldn't be grumpy about handing the open water dives away. If a different agency certifies the student, the cert still goes to the originating agency. So this shouldn't be a problem.
Basically, your instructor is being difficult. Good luck.
Basically, your instructor is being difficult. Good luck.
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Hello Jenth and welcome to ScubaBoard!! I am sorry that I did not see this post earlier. As a NAUI Instructor myself I am embarrassed by the other Instructors lack of willingness to work with you more on resolving this issue. I agree that this seems (if I understand your account of the situation correctly) to be more of a customer service issue than anything else.
I myself prefer to finish any student that I have started. I have been fortunate enough to have been successful thus far. That's the way I was trained when I took by OW class and I enjoyed it. I felt very comfortable with someone who I felt got to know me as a student, was comfortable with my fears and concerns, and who I came to trust would make sure I would complete my course safely. That was a big issue to me at the time as a new diver.
I have never required a student to sign a statement that I am the only one who can complete their training. If your Instructor did so and you were aware of it however, then I can respect his decision, even if I would have behaved differently.
I shy away from suggesting to students that I can get them certified by a certain date. It is dangerous to plan a trip that you need a certification for and not be certified. You run the risk of not completing the certification process for a number of reasons. Some students are just not ready by their target date and I think it is dangerous for an Instructor to sign some one off just to meet a predetermined deadline.
Without having participated in your training it is difficult to know if you are ready for your checkout dives even after 10 pool sessions. I don't know it it is the weather that is keeping your Instructor from taking you on the training dives or if there are other factors involved. I would ask him directly.
It seems as if NAUI has addressed some of your concerns as to how Instructors are allowed to conduct business on a broad scale. With regards to where you go from here, I would discuss with your Instructor what he feels is your readiness to successfully complete your checkout dives. If he feels you are truly ready, then I would attempt to secure a date. If that date is not acceptable to you, then I would explore your option with the other Instructor you mentioned. Hopefully you can get your folder from the original Instructor and simply move on from this experience.
I believe that most Instructors would have handled this situation differently. The NAUI Instructors I know and have worked with are quite flexible. If you have completed your academic/pool sessions and are ready, they'll try and get you into your checkout dives as soon as is mutually agreeable. If there is a disagreement or lack of comfort between a student and Instructor, for whatever reason, they will try to arrange for you to complete your training with another Instructor. At least that is what SHOULD happen IMHO.
While I understand the original Instructors desire to "finish what he started", and I commend him on wanting to see you through to completion, if the lines of communication have broken down such that there is no forward progress on the matter, then it seems time to move on.
I am sorry for this negative experience but I don't believe that his behavior is typical of Instructors in general. I hope you continue diving beyond this experience.
I myself prefer to finish any student that I have started. I have been fortunate enough to have been successful thus far. That's the way I was trained when I took by OW class and I enjoyed it. I felt very comfortable with someone who I felt got to know me as a student, was comfortable with my fears and concerns, and who I came to trust would make sure I would complete my course safely. That was a big issue to me at the time as a new diver.
I have never required a student to sign a statement that I am the only one who can complete their training. If your Instructor did so and you were aware of it however, then I can respect his decision, even if I would have behaved differently.
I shy away from suggesting to students that I can get them certified by a certain date. It is dangerous to plan a trip that you need a certification for and not be certified. You run the risk of not completing the certification process for a number of reasons. Some students are just not ready by their target date and I think it is dangerous for an Instructor to sign some one off just to meet a predetermined deadline.
Without having participated in your training it is difficult to know if you are ready for your checkout dives even after 10 pool sessions. I don't know it it is the weather that is keeping your Instructor from taking you on the training dives or if there are other factors involved. I would ask him directly.
It seems as if NAUI has addressed some of your concerns as to how Instructors are allowed to conduct business on a broad scale. With regards to where you go from here, I would discuss with your Instructor what he feels is your readiness to successfully complete your checkout dives. If he feels you are truly ready, then I would attempt to secure a date. If that date is not acceptable to you, then I would explore your option with the other Instructor you mentioned. Hopefully you can get your folder from the original Instructor and simply move on from this experience.
I believe that most Instructors would have handled this situation differently. The NAUI Instructors I know and have worked with are quite flexible. If you have completed your academic/pool sessions and are ready, they'll try and get you into your checkout dives as soon as is mutually agreeable. If there is a disagreement or lack of comfort between a student and Instructor, for whatever reason, they will try to arrange for you to complete your training with another Instructor. At least that is what SHOULD happen IMHO.
While I understand the original Instructors desire to "finish what he started", and I commend him on wanting to see you through to completion, if the lines of communication have broken down such that there is no forward progress on the matter, then it seems time to move on.
I am sorry for this negative experience but I don't believe that his behavior is typical of Instructors in general. I hope you continue diving beyond this experience.
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RICHinNC
Contributor
I can't wait to see how this turns out. What a cliff hanger. Wish you luck!
Jupiter31
Contributor
Very interesting thread
Perhaps b/c I live in S FL and have seen many from out of town doing their check out dives on a referral basis, as well as those in resort areas doing the same thing, I had no idea this could become an issue.
Good luck; hope it works out.
Perhaps b/c I live in S FL and have seen many from out of town doing their check out dives on a referral basis, as well as those in resort areas doing the same thing, I had no idea this could become an issue.
Good luck; hope it works out.
Just wanted to update in case anyone's interested. I'm now OW certified 
. I ended up starting anew with another local NAUI instructor, Jeff Seckendorf. He's a great instructor that I'd recommend to anyone (also teaches UTD classes). I had to do a few pool sessions with him and retake the written exam, but soon enough, I was able to go to Catalina and Vets Park with him to finish up the ocean dives. Saw lots of garibaldi, a starfish...and the highlight was a bat ray. Definitely some exciting first dives!
Now I can get in a few more dives before my trip...so that I'm a bit more squared away. Already have a few dives planned this week.
Thanks to everyone for your help and posts. It made the situation easier...and made me a more knowledgeable diver. Still lots for me to learn and work on, though. Looking forward to my next trip into the water!
. I ended up starting anew with another local NAUI instructor, Jeff Seckendorf. He's a great instructor that I'd recommend to anyone (also teaches UTD classes). I had to do a few pool sessions with him and retake the written exam, but soon enough, I was able to go to Catalina and Vets Park with him to finish up the ocean dives. Saw lots of garibaldi, a starfish...and the highlight was a bat ray. Definitely some exciting first dives! Now I can get in a few more dives before my trip...so that I'm a bit more squared away. Already have a few dives planned this week.
Thanks to everyone for your help and posts. It made the situation easier...and made me a more knowledgeable diver. Still lots for me to learn and work on, though. Looking forward to my next trip into the water!
ems_is_4_me
Guest
Glad to hear you have got your cert now have fun
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