So many agencies, what to do?

[Tank102a]

I have been diving on and off for about 7 years. Recently I became very interested in cave diving. Knowing that it's not as easy as it looks I want to start off the right way.
So here are some questions.

1. Which agency should I look to for my certifications?
2. How much sould I expect ot spend (I have no certifications except for open water)
3. Any recomendations for instructors in the florida panhandle

 

[alewar]

First you need to get an advanced c-card, like CMAS** or PADI AOW.

Here is the book (in PDF-format) describing the CMAS cave-diving courses, perhaps you find it useful:

http://souterraine.ffessm.fr/03_DOCUMENTS/Standards_CMAS-INT_E_Mai2006_V4.0.pdf

 

[ucfdiver]

First you need to get an advanced c-card, like CMAS** or PADI AOW.

No, you don't.

I have an NACD cave card with no AOW. I know one of my dive buddies has IANTD Cave without AOW as well. I took nss-cds basic cave (before nacd had intro with doubles) without AOW.

The general attitude around cave country seems to be that AOW cards are "purchased" and they really don't hold much value. If you can find a quality instructor, I'm sure the skills would better prepare you for cave training, but it's not a prereq, I think NAUI might require it?

Either way, the basic things that are different between the various training levels are
Cavern- light zone only, typically 130ft from the surface, penetration+depth.
Basic/Intro - Typically 1/6th of doubles (or 1/3 of singles, if single tank cave diving is your thing lol).
Cave 1 (GUE)- basically intro, but they calculate 1/3 of 2/3 for penetration gas.
Cave 1 (NAUI) - 1/3rds and 2 navigational decisions

If I had it to do over again, I'd take cavern and intro together, and then later on take apprentice and cave together (or cave 1 then cave 2 if done that route). Looking back, I think GUE and NAUI have it right-- take an intro to tech class, and THEN do your first cave class, skipping cavern. I think there's so much overlap between cavern and your first cave class that the flow of information would have been easier to manage had I combined them.

The NAUI program is interesting because it allows a new cave diver to go a bit further, and provides the training to do so. It eliminates the risk of breaking 1/6ths or going down one of the common jump passages that most intro/basic divers feel after a few dives, but limits the decisions to 2, so they can't get extremely far off mainline.

 

[alewar]

No, you don't.

I have an NACD cave card with no AOW. I know one of my dive buddies has IANTD Cave without AOW as well. I took nss-cds basic cave (before nacd had intro with doubles) without AOW.

You're right!

 

[ucfdiver]

You're right!

Yeah, it's a little confusing how it's worded. I can't imagine anyone taking cavern or basic cave at 15 dives, but I guess technically, it's possible.

Either way, just to clarify-
CDS Training Programs Cavern / Cave
NACD Training

Prerequisites: Advanced open water or equivalent or 15 logged non training open water dives with open water certification.

 

[hudson]

I'm a n00b myself but for what it's worth, here's my line of thinking from when I did my basic cave earlier this year:

The key choice is instructor, there isn't much difference between agencies. If you will be using backmount doubles then the distinction is really GUE (and the whole DIR team diving philosophy) vs one of the others. For non-GUE, it's typically a good idea to take cavern & intro together and a bad idea to take all four classes at once (you end up with enough to worry about and practice once done with basic cave believe me). If time & money it not too much of a concern then GUE Fundamentals is a good course to take as it goes further in teaching you kicks, trim, buoyancy etc skills than a what a typical cavern course would, from what I've seen.

Depending on the instructor and class size expect to pay around $400 per class (x4) or perhaps a bit less.

There are a lot of good instructors. Search for instructors and you'll end up with a lot of names, also check cavediver.net and thedecostop.com. Once you put together a list, contact them all, ask a lot of questions, chances are with an instructor who communicates well and takes the time to provide satisfactory answers, you'll have an easier time through the class. Specifically ask them what they do in class, day by day and what they emphasize. Then you can decide based on cost & scheduling. Also, some of them are drill-sergeants, others are more easy going and simply point out the issues rather than clubbing you over the head with them. Both approaches have merit, it's up to you which one you prefer. For class size, two students worked great for me and that's what I would recommend.

Remember if you go for it, you MUST hit the caves continuously or your skills WILL atrophy. Staying away from the caves for several months is not a good idea for a newbie. It's not something you can do "on and off".

 

[PfcAJ]

No, you don't.

I have an NACD cave card with no AOW. I know one of my dive buddies has IANTD Cave without AOW as well. I took nss-cds basic cave (before nacd had intro with doubles) without AOW.

The general attitude around cave country seems to be that AOW cards are "purchased" and they really don't hold much value. If you can find a quality instructor, I'm sure the skills would better prepare you for cave training, but it's not a prereq, I think NAUI might require it?

Either way, the basic things that are different between the various training levels are
Cavern- light zone only, typically 130ft from the surface, penetration+depth.
Basic/Intro - Typically 1/6th of doubles (or 1/3 of singles, if single tank cave diving is your thing lol).
Cave 1 (GUE)- basically intro, but they calculate 1/3 of 2/3 for penetration gas.
Cave 1 (NAUI) - 1/3rds and 2 navigational decisions

If I had it to do over again, I'd take cavern and intro together, and then later on take apprentice and cave together (or cave 1 then cave 2 if done that route). Looking back, I think GUE and NAUI have it right-- take an intro to tech class, and THEN do your first cave class, skipping cavern. I think there's so much overlap between cavern and your first cave class that the flow of information would have been easier to manage had I combined them.

The NAUI program is interesting because it allows a new cave diver to go a bit further, and provides the training to do so. It eliminates the risk of breaking 1/6ths or going down one of the common jump passages that most intro/basic divers feel after a few dives, but limits the decisions to 2, so they can't get extremely far off mainline.

I disagree about NAUI's training. Thirds and 2 nav decisions can get you real far into some caves, and a new cave diver simply does not have the experience to back it up. On top of that, thirds in caves in the 80-100ft range will put you in or close to deco. I do not think that new cave divers should be getting close to a deco limit at that level. Of course, one could argue "they should know their limits", but this is often easier said than done.

A new cave diver benefits greatly from multiple short exposures learning the basics. Laying line, focusing on kicks, learning the front of the cave, honing ascents in flow, retrieving line, team diving protocols, etc. By diving to 1/6 (or GUE's gas plan, which is great), you get ample time early in your career to master these fundamental cave diving skills before progressing.

I was initially trained as a NAUI cave 1 diver then switched to the GUE curriculum, so I have a bit of experience with both agencies.

 

[ucfdiver]

I disagree about NAUI's training. Thirds and 2 nav decisions can get you real far into some caves, and a new cave diver simply does not have the experience to back it up. On top of that, thirds in caves in the 80-100ft range will put you in or close to deco. I do not think that new cave divers should be getting close to a deco limit at that level. Of course, one could argue "they should know their limits", but this is often easier said than done.

A new cave diver benefits greatly from multiple short exposures learning the basics. Laying line, focusing on kicks, learning the front of the cave, honing ascents in flow, retrieving line, team diving protocols, etc. By diving to 1/6 (or GUE's gas plan, which is great), you get ample time early in your career to master these fundamental cave diving skills before progressing.

I was initially trained as a NAUI cave 1 diver then switched to the GUE curriculum, so I have a bit of experience with both agencies.

Wasn't recommending it, just pointing out one obvious "advantage", or disadvantage, depending on how you see it. I think you'll see my suggestion was an intro to tech type course followed by cavern+ intro or equivalent.

I do think that, there needs to be something between 1/6ths and unlimited jumps and stage bottles...but I think mentoring while diving in your comfort level between the intro and full cave (cave 2) levels works best.

The risk of deco obligation is a legit point, one very few seem to talk or think about....without a deco gas, any air loss could get you in trouble fast diving to 1/3rds and hitting "unplanned" deco. Some basic math could demonstrate how 1/3rds, a deco requirement without a deco bottle, and a gas failure could get you bent in a hurry...which I guess isn't life threatening as long as someone's at the surface to drive the two bent divers to the hospital, but not really how I'd like to plan my dives.

Navigational decisions can get you in trouble fast too....especially with a stress factor thrown in on the dive. #18 line can get lost in the distance in a cave fast-- especially if you've had something go wrong already in the dive, or aren't familiar with the cave. I'm willing to bet that all of us have an oh ***** moment early on, when the line was no more than 5-10ft away from us.

 

[karstdvr]

The NAUI program is interesting because it allows a new cave diver to go a bit further, and provides the training to do so. It eliminates the risk of breaking 1/6ths or going down one of the common jump passages that most intro/basic divers feel after a few dives, but limits the decisions to 2, so they can't get extremely far off mainline.

I remember there has been some question about NAUI cave cert and this could result in access to places that may not acknowledge this certification. I would also be careful about some other agencies. I had a ranger at one of the state parks look in the window of a car with a c-card in the dash and ask me if I know what level this was,and honestly I never heard of that agency. Problems like this make state parks question certifications,which can be a hassle factor for the holder.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I tend to agree with PfcAJ - 1/3rds and 2 navigational decisions has the potential to get Intro level divers killed in larger numbers, but time will tell.

I agree with Ucfdiver that taking Cavern and Intro together, then a full 4 days for Full Cave makes sense.

Most of the line skills, air share skills, etc are learned in Cavern, you just build on them in Intro and do them in a cave environement. The progresssion from one to the other is very smooth, timely and natural. Plus just doing cavern dives could get old fast. The exception here would be if the diver is less than perfect with buoyancy, fin techniques, etc or is not 100% confident in the water. In that case a break between the two to practice is not a bad idea as passing Intro with any of those issues should not happen.

I am also a big believer in taking a year or so between Intro and Full Cave to just dive, practice and build experience in caves before coming back to learn the complex navigation aspects that are taught in Full Cave. Then, just get it over with and do the full 4 days without splitting it into Apprentice and Full Cave. Apprentice is just a training level that expires. Again, if the diver is less than 100% I could see a situation where they would stop after Day 2 and again take a break to just practice and get more experience before taking the last 2 days of Full Cave.

I am also a believer in doing everything including Cavern in doubles and more importantly, getting very comfortable in doubles with all the configuration, buoyancy and trim issues resolved well before you show up for a Cavern or Cave class. There is enough to learn in Cavern or Intro without also having to learn how to manage doubles, and it makes no sense to start the progression in singles and then transition to doubles. Do the doubles first.

The only class I was ever required to have an AOW card for was Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures. That is a good class to take prior to cave training, and a good way to get to know a set of doubles, deco bottles, etc. It is also nice to have it our of the way prior to Full Cave as you will end up in deco on virtually every dive in a Full Cave class unless you are a real hoover. Knowing accellerated deco procedures first helps.

I also agree that the instructor is everything - way more important than the agency and you want to find and instructor that works well with your personality and learning style.