Running with Scissors

[Cave Bum]

The day still exist that an instructor wont just pass a student because he payed the money ... I do know this, as my instructor will not pass you unless he thinks you can be a safe diver, that could mean more instruction one on one, if your honestly trying (without any extra charge) ... or that could mean dropping you from the class, if your not making an effort

I've only had to deny certification to 2 divers so far. One was my first class teaching freelance for a multi-sport shop who had started selling dive gear. The manufacturer of the equipment they were selling was a friend of mine and he set me up with this shop so they'd have an instructor. I had included one of the owners of the shop in the first class and it turned out…



He couldn’t swim!



Great way to start off! Failing the owner of the shop I was teaching for…

 

[Kingpatzer]

BTW I'm pretty sure you took the solo course from an SDI instructor who also taught PADI stuff as well.

He is a PADI CD, he is a CD for a fairly large 5-Star shop (PADI allows instructors to teach course from other agencies if PADI has no equivalent course offering). He does not teach for any other shops. He teaches only that SDI course that I am aware of.

I'd be one heck of a reach to call him an SDI instructor that happens to teach PADI stuff.

 

[Kingpatzer]

This thread isn't about teaching solo diving to new divers. It's about PADI's using it’s position on SOLO diving to say that a buddy is a be-all and end-all solution to any diving problem.

I've taken all but two of the PADI specialty courses. I'm working on my assistant instructor certification now. I have never once, in any PADI training course, been told that a buddy is "a be-all and end-all solution to any diving problem." Not once.

I have been specifically told that the response to any diving problem is to "stop, think act." Usually with an emphasis on continuing to breath normally as well. I've been told explicitly that I am responsible for my own safety, both pre-dive and during the dive, and that I need to recognize that at all times.

Maybe you're experience is more with crappy instructors than with PADI. But unless you can show me, in the instructor materials, where that is stated, my contention is that you are simply wrong in your starting assumption, and that therefore the ensuing argument is specious.

 

[Cave Bum]

.. my contention is that you are simply wrong in your starting assumption, and that therefore the ensuing argument is specious.

You're welcome to your opinion, mine differs with yours based on the training I've seen by other instructors coming to our springs to teach...

So you are saying there is no reason to teach any more self-reliance then is already taught, correct? And what amount, in your opinion, is being taught? Please quantify.

 

[Kingpatzer]

You're welcome to your opinion, mine differs with yours based on the training I've seen by other instructors coming to our springs to teach...

So you are saying there is no reason to teach any more self-reliance then is already taught, correct? And what amount, in your opinion, is being taught? Please quantify.

Quantify eh? Ummmm ok, the number is 23!

More seriously, the instructors I've had, most particularly those I work with, are very upfront that a diver is responsible for themselves. While they don't go into solo diving considerations such as pony bottles in OW, they do mention their uses in other diving situations.

While they stress the importance of having a dive buddy, they also stress that a diver is responsible for their own safety at all times. From the responsibility of calling a dive at any point for any reason if they feel uncomfortable, to considerations of the diver's responsibility to their own safety over their buddy's in situations where things go wrong.

They even note in their OW class that a student should disregard an instructor if they believe the instructor is endangering them in any way. My favorite instructor tells people in every class something along the lines of:

It is my job to instruct you to the best of my ability, but I don't know everything. It is your job to keep yourself safe and alive. If you think I'm wrong on the surface ask! If you think I'm wrong underwater, call the dive.

Again, can you point to anything in the PADI instructional material that states that buddy procedures are the only solution to any problem, or even that such procedures are always best?

Self-rescue is taught from day one regarding low-air and out-of-air situations. And in every course beyond then, the responsibility for the individual to look out for their own safety is taught as well.

Maybe you think PADI is wrong to tell OW students that if they find themselves OOA that they should use their buddy's octo if available?

 

[Cave Bum]

Kingpatzer,

Thanks for your input. It's good to know there are some instructors out there taking the time to teach as you describe. It is also the way I try to teach. Not all PADI instructors teach this way, however.

Again, thanks for your input.

Bruce

 

[boulderjohn]

Maybe more dive schools should fail new divers, I genuinely don't know, not having the experience to judge. Right now, you plunk down your money, and you expect to get your OW certificate. That could change, but given the demands of the market, will it?

The philosophy of most dive instruction is standards-based, not time based.

In time-based instruction, time is the constant and learning is the variable. You teach for a certain amount of time and then measure the results. People who have not reached a specific level of learning fail the course.

In standards-based instruction, learning is the constant and time is the variable. You keep teaching until students reach the specified level of learning, regardless of how long it takes. There is no failure, as long as the student wishes to keep pursuing the standard. However, the idea that there is no failure does not mean that people automatically pass because they paid their money. They must reach the required performance level.

Now, the system is not perfect, and there are certainly instructors who teach for a certain amount of time and feel pressured to pass students who should still be in the "not yet," category. In theory, though, such a student should be required to continue learning; no one should actually be given what we traditionally consider a failing grade.

As for me, I have had a number of students who decided during the class that scuba was not going to work for them. For example, one 69-year old who had had several major surgeries and was fairly feeble and who was struggling to learn the skills left the class. It was a decision he reached in consultation with me. I think it was a good decision, but it was his decision, not mine.

 

[DaleC]

He is a PADI CD, he is a CD for a fairly large 5-Star shop (PADI allows instructors to teach course from other agencies if PADI has no equivalent course offering). He does not teach for any other shops. He teaches only that SDI course that I am aware of.

I'd be one heck of a reach to call him an SDI instructor that happens to teach PADI stuff.

If you took a SDI course from him then (at that time) he was acting as a SDI instructor (who coincedentally teaches PADI stuff). That's ok though, it's not really germane to the discussion.

What Cave bum is alluding too, and what I experienced myself, is that PADI places a strong emphasis on the buddy system for solving problems - instead of self reliance.

For myself one good example was shooting a SMB at depth during AOW. We did it, one shooting the bag and one running the reel. That's great as a demonstration of how the bag and reel works but what if you are buddy seperated and have to shoot a bag? I had to practice that skill on my own.

Another example is not practicing a CESA at depth. The contention that a buddy will always be there and should be relied upon has caused PADI to allow OW divers to pass without ever practicing this life saving skill properly. In my case we CESA'ed from the bottom of the pool with no gear on.

Another is not removing a BCD at depth. The contention that a buddy will always be there and should be relied upon has allowed divers to pass without ever practicing this life saving skill where it is needed (at depth). In my case we doffed and donned on the surface.

I could go on.

Some instructors will say they do teach these things (good for them) but officially, PADI allows for discussion only or a simulated experience. None of which really prepares the student for the real thing. PADI skirts this issue of course by emphasising the buddy system... Which is Cave Bums contention.

 

[Cave Bum]

The philosophy of most dive instruction is standards-based, not time based.

In time-based instruction, time is the constant and learning is the variable. You teach for a certain amount of time and then measure the results. People who have not reached a specific level of learning fail the course.

In standards-based instruction, learning is the constant and time is the variable. You keep teaching until students reach the specified level of learning, regardless of how long it takes. There is no failure, as long as the student wishes to keep pursuing the standard. However, the idea that there is no failure does not mean that people automatically pass because they paid their money. They must reach the required performance level.

Very good insight, Boulderjohn,

I hadn't analysed it that way, but you've indeed summed up what I feel and what I teach. I tell my students "you haven't paid me to teach you these 3 days for this 3 day course, you've paid me to get you certified to scuba dive and we will work together to achieve that even if it takes more time".

I will continue to teach as long as the student is willing to try and usually without charging for the additional time.

 

[Cave Bum]

Thank you DaleC. Well put, that is exactly what I'm getting at. Thank you for describing it succinctly.