Running with Scissors

[boulderjohn]

Another example is not practicing a CESA at depth. The contention that a buddy will always be there and should be relied upon has caused PADI to allow OW divers to pass without ever practicing this life saving skill properly. In my case we CESA'ed from the bottom of the pool with no gear on.

Another is not removing a BCD at depth. The contention that a buddy will always be there and should be relied upon has allowed divers to pass without ever practicing this life saving skill where it is needed (at depth). In my case we doffed and donned on the surface.

You should immediately report these two standards violations to PADI.

CESA must be simulated in the pool--the standard is that the student must do a CESA (horizontally, of course) for a distance of 30 feet. Students must also do a CESA at depth in the OW dives. This is a point of emphasis, and the process the instructor must follow to do this safely is spelled out carefully.

BCD removal and replacement must be done during the confined water section of the course in water too deep to stand in.

 

[dwhthediver]

What Cave bum is alluding too, and what I experienced myself, is that PADI places a strong emphasis on the buddy system for solving problems - instead of self reliance.

For myself one good example was shooting a SMB at depth during AOW. We did it, one shooting the bag and one running the reel. That's great as a demonstration of how the bag and reel works but what if you are buddy seperated and have to shoot a bag? I had to practice that skill on my own.

Another example is not practicing a CESA at depth. The contention that a buddy will always be there and should be relied upon has caused PADI to allow OW divers to pass without ever practicing this life saving skill properly. In my case we CESA'ed from the bottom of the pool with no gear on.

Another is not removing a BCD at depth. The contention that a buddy will always be there and should be relied upon has allowed divers to pass without ever practicing this life saving skill where it is needed (at depth). In my case we doffed and donned on the surface.
I could go on.

Some instructors will say they do teach these things (good for them) but officially, PADI allows for discussion only or a simulated experience. None of which really prepares the student for the real thing. PADI skirts this issue of course by emphasising the buddy system... Which is Cave Bums contention.

Those are standard violations, CESA IS taught in the pool with equipment, horizontally for at least 30 feet, and the BCD removal at depth is also taught in the pool both of those skills are in water too deep to stand in. Whenever I go over knowledge review 3, there is a question(question 12) that deals with out of air problems, and at that time I do interject about redundancy and self rescue besides CESA, and show them a pony setup, and yes even a dreaded "Spare Air" clarifying what depths and dives each are useful to use one or the other. Not every student is there to become a harness and doubles wearing warrior, some are learning to take a couple of dive vacations a year to warm, clear waters and enjoy the sites, and the O/W class prepares them for that and the choice to get further eduation. The buddy system works best for entry level divers, but I do teach self reliance.

 

[dbulmer]

I disagree that the buddy system works bests for entry level divers - I think it works best for all divers who put in the time and effort to be good buddies. I don't believe that we divers are born to be great buddies but need guidance and training on how to become good buddies and that agency instructors are not the only educators out there in the world.

Having said that, I do agree that a diver can enjoy the sport more by learning to become a more capable diver and that comes through time in the water with people willing to cast a critical but constructive eye.

There are people who have the ability and aptitude to dive solo safely but many a time there are others who have deluded themselves about their own diving ability.

The best training of all is gaining the skill and judgement to avoid dangerous situations in the first place ie Go diving ! - practicing a CESA at depth for example when a perfectly good backup or octopus is at close range is just dumb in my opinion. (making sure you follow good buddy procedures and checking gauges makes more sense for me since scuba equipment does not fail often but human error is more insiduous)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

The only way to avoid a dangerous situation is not to go diving. Any extra skills one may teach that go along with solo diving or self help so to speak would go a long way in an equipment failure scenario. The ability to stay calm and deal with the situation far outweighs having a buddy. If you panic it will not matter if you have a buddy or not. Things are going to get worse.

I disagree that the buddy system works bests for entry level divers - I think it works best for all divers who put in the time and effort to be good buddies. I don't believe that we divers are born to be great buddies but need guidance and training on how to become good buddies and that agency instructors are not the only educators out there in the world.

Having said that, I do agree that a diver can enjoy the sport more by learning to become a more capable diver and that comes through time in the water with people willing to cast a critical but constructive eye.

There are people who have the ability and aptitude to dive solo safely but many a time there are others who have deluded themselves about their own diving ability.

The best training of all is gaining the skill and judgement to avoid dangerous situations in the first place ie Go diving ! - practicing a CESA at depth for example when a perfectly good backup or octopus is at close range is just dumb in my opinion. (making sure you follow good buddy procedures and checking gauges makes more sense for me since scuba equipment does not fail often but human error is more insiduous)

 

[DaleC]

You should immediately report these two standards violations to PADI.

Oh John, I am so not that guy . I like my Instructors and feel they got me where I needed to go within the time constraints put upon them. I don't have a conflict with PADI either actually as I (think) I understand its place in the industry/sport. It is an agency that has reduced it's emphasis on turning out "complete" divers in the short term in order to introduce the mainstream to diving. It's the gateway drug. I get it but that doesn't stop me from seeing some of the short comings that have developed as a result. It is a conflict that results when people turn a sport/pastime into a business and I also recognize that it's easy to criticize when I'm not the one who has to crunch the numbers and report to the shareholders.
PADI is what PADI is; it has its +'s and its -'s just like everything else. The only problem I see here is that PADI HQ might use its stance on soloing as a means to not admit to some of its -'s.

 

[DevonDiver]

DaleC.... if you do nothing about this, the instructor concerned will just continue providing sub-standard education to generations of divers.

All instructors are faced with time and rescource limitations when it comes to teaching courses.... but we still achieve all of the skills and education that is stipulated by PADI standards.

The instructor concerned, who broke standards, did so out of laziness. No excuses. He was no hero.

The PADI OW course is minimal enough as it is. It is easy enough to teach as it is. Cutting skills (as they are supposed to be taught) just deprives you of valuable experience that you need to be safe in the water.

The lazy fooking instructor, was willing to jeapordize your safety for his own convenience. He should be reported. YOU may feel fine that you didn't get those skills trained properly..... but the next student may not....and your inaction could lead to somebody having an accident in the future.

The dive industry relies on people 'flagging up' bad instructors. We have enough bad instructors as it is.... if they aren't reported, they just grow worse and worse.... until someone gets hurt.

 

[dbulmer]

Kevin,
You learn to become calm and how to deal with underwater problems by diving - there is always a risk that something might go wrong but in many cases having a buddy will prevent a small issue from becoming a bigger one. I am not advocating total reliance on a buddy - the individual diver has to be become comfortable enough in the water to be able to cope with the odd issue but there can be circumstances when an extra set of brain cells can remove the stress from a stressful situation.

A question I have is: What specific skills are different in a solo diving course? How do they differ from the buddy system? In essence what I'm asking is, what is there to be gained from a solo diving course or diving solo that you could not achieve from training/diving within the buddy system?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Ok point taken. That makes a lot more sense to me and thanks for the clarification. I agree one functioning brain can help calm a situation. But what you see mostly is less experienced divers diving together. I wish I could say what should be taught that would help prevent panic, maybe someone on here has completed the solo dive class. I too would like to know what skills they are teaching in the solo course.

Kevin,
You learn to become calm and how to deal with underwater problems by diving - there is always a risk that something might go wrong but in many cases having a buddy will prevent a small issue from becoming a bigger one. I am not advocating total reliance on a buddy - the individual diver has to be become comfortable enough in the water to be able to cope with the odd issue but there can be circumstances when an extra set of brain cells can remove the stress from a stressful situation.

A question I have is: What specific skills are different in a solo diving course? How do they differ from the buddy system? In essence what I'm asking is, what is there to be gained from a solo diving course or diving solo that you could not achieve from training/diving within the buddy system?

 

[Cave Bum]

You learn to become calm and how to deal with underwater problems by diving - the individual diver has to be become comfortable enough in the water to be able to cope with the odd issue ...

Chuck Yeager said in his autobiography "the way to become a great pilot is to fly. You don't develope those skills sitting in the hanger reading books" (or something close to that...).

That leaning in diving will take time after training. I'm hoping to give my students the tools to survive while learning these things on their own or through more advanced classes but also I hope to instill in them the concepts so they can 'self teach' while diving on their own.

A question I have is: What specific skills are different in a solo diving course? How do they differ from the buddy system? In essence what I'm asking is, what is there to be gained from a solo diving course or diving solo that you could not achieve from training/diving within the buddy system?

...but what you see mostly is less experienced divers diving together. I wish I could say what should be taught that would help prevent panic, maybe someone on here has completed the solo dive class. I too would like to know what skills they are teaching in the solo course.

Good question!

Let me see if I can fit some more detail into what I’m shooting for here…

I can’t say what skills they teach in a solo diving course because I’ve never taken one and never taught one.

The self-reliance skills I’ve developed have come in some part from about 250 solo cave dives and the procedures I’ve developed to do that safely but more so from the training and flight hours I put in flying single engine aircraft solo in and around the Rocky Mountains for 10 years or so.

There are two separate parts to developing self-reliance; one is ‘Skills’ and the other is ‘Identification and Solutions’.

Skills include:

• Situational Awareness
• Preplanning for all conceived emergencies and their responses
• Practicing emergency procedures (including/especially after training)

Identification and Solutions include:

• ‘Hanger Talk’ –ie- Sitting around talking with other’s, doing ‘what-if’s’ “What would you do if {this} happened”?
• Visualization and conceptualization –ie- thinking through problems on your own before they happen and planning a response. This goes a long way toward avoiding panic when emergencies actually happen.
• Formalized problem solving: The steps are:
  • concise problem statement
  • divergent thinking
  • convergent thinking
  • solution identification
  • solution implementation
  • continuing improvement.

Anybody have steps to add to that?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Nope nothing to add to that. I notice that those of us who cave dives seem to do a lot more of the what ifs. But how many new open water certified divers actually see how easy it is for things to go wrong? I had great OW instructors and we did cover some of this. However I see way too many new divers that are indestructible, at least they think so until something goes wrong.