Running with Scissors

[shoredivr]

The PADI OW course is minimal enough as it is. It is easy enough to teach as it is. Cutting skills (as they are supposed to be taught) just deprives you of valuable experience that you need to be safe in the water.

[...]

The dive industry relies on people 'flagging up' bad instructors. We have enough bad instructors as it is.... if they aren't reported, they just grow worse and worse.... until someone gets hurt.

That's not a very good advertisement for PADI is it?

 

[boulderjohn]

Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post

The PADI OW course is minimal enough as it is. It is easy enough to teach as it is. Cutting skills (as they are supposed to be taught) just deprives you of valuable experience that you need to be safe in the water.

[...]

The dive industry relies on people 'flagging up' bad instructors. We have enough bad instructors as it is.... if they aren't reported, they just grow worse and worse.... until someone gets hurt.

That's not a very good advertisement for PADI is it?

I don't see your point.

PADIs instructional philosophy requires instructors to do exactly what Cave Bum says he does: take however long it takes to have students meet standards. This instructor did not do that. If he felt pressured by time, then he needs to find a way to deal with it. He should not pass students who have not met standards.

From the way you bolded the word "replies," I assume you see that process as problematic. Can you describe how else it can be done?

 

[Cave Bum]

It has it's moments! It certainly is an eye-opener for many to realise that in fact if you want to be competent, you have to put some effort in to learn new things and practice them...

It's "not a typical PADI course", and whilst PADI have trimmed back their syllabus over time - they're not opposed to people teaching this kind of stuff. I think the statement on solo diving in the OP is perhaps a little dated - but it's in line with common sense, and you'd struggle to have any real disagreement with.

This is good read:

The Buddy System Reexamined

The section on "Achieving Self-reliance" sums it up perfectly in my book.

This quote is taken from a recent post in the thread that promted me to start this thread, the thread that was moved to the 'Solo Divers' section instead of being left here in 'Basic Scuba Discussions'. The document AndyNZ references is very relevant to our discussion so I thought I'd copy his post here (rather then trying to claim I'd found this document on my own )

 

[TSandM]

Cave Bum, I was happy to read your last post. I have to admit, it hasn't been entirely clear to me what your point was in this thread, and I had reached the conclusion that you basically were annoyed that open water divers weren't taught to carry pony bottles The list of skills and solutions that you have posted clarifies matters, and I would agree with you that that kind of analysis is not done in OW classes in general. Specific, isolated skills are taught, but there is little or no discussion of the types of situations that might call for those skills, or how to avoid the necessity of using them.

I posted about three years ago or so about considering the "what ifs" -- and I think students aren't even introduced to that kind of mindset until Rescue at the earliest. Every diver should look down into the water and think about the hazards of that particular dive, and have evaluated their ability and their strategy for coping for each one, before their mask is wet. From handling navigation to having some kind of gas management plan, each facet of the dive should be planned. But in a world where people ARE taught to do buddy checks, and then cheerfully chuck the whole concept as soon as they are out from under an instructor's eye, I'm kind of wryly pessimistic that, even if you teach divers the "what if" approach, they will continue to implement it.

 

[Cave Bum]

Cave Bum, I was happy to read your last post. I have to admit, it hasn't been entirely clear to me what your point was in this thread, and I had reached the conclusion that you basically were annoyed that open water divers weren't taught to carry pony bottles .

Part of my reason for not stating my position until everyone else had a chance to, was I was asking what others think. I didn't want to foist my opinion on them. You don't get others opinions when your trying to shove your own opinions down their throats. I was asking because I was (and am) truly interested it what others think, and not just those who agree with me. This is part of the ‘brain storming’ or divergent thinking part of the problem solving process. During ‘brain storming’ there are no ‘wrong’ ideas, everything gets included. You start to cull that down during the convergent thinking part of the process.

Another reason that perhaps this came out clearer is that it's this discussion that has prompted me to think through the problem and actually do the problem solving in the formal way I was taught to do it. Now I’m to the convergent part of the process, so I threw my ideas in so as to include them in the ‘brain storming’.

I fully intend to write up a formal proposal for PADI, based on the conclusions of this discussion. I'm just as sure I’ll get shot down, but I am going to try…

 

[Crowley]

Cave Bum,

I thought by this stage somebody would have mentioned this but since nobody appears to have done, I thought I would reprint an edited version of PADI's position on solo diving. The original post has been blocked for some reason, however PADI do not, as you suggest, condemn it outright. They suggest it is a niche activitiy for those who have the required experience and training and are willing to accept the extra risks involved - just like Tec Diving.

To quote (with some bits of waffle removed):

Why PADI advocates the use of the buddy system
The buddy system in use today for scuba diving came from a decades old water safety concept found in swimming and lifeguard training. It was adopted because it applied to diving and because it made good safety sense. Early support of buddy diving safety procedures was referenced by Jacques Cousteau.... The buddy system provides divers in training with a safety redundancy .. that diving alone simply cannot provide. PADI has, and will continue to, train divers using the buddy system based on its proven benefit to diving, divers and diving safety.

Safety:
The roots of the buddy system arise from diving and water safety. Early days of diver training heralded the buddy system as an important safety procedure because only through the buddy system could a diver reasonably expect to escape from entanglement, entrapment, out of air situations, disorientation, a head injury, chest pains, cramping and dozens more....

Can Solo Diving be done responsibly?
Yes, but let's be clear about what responsible solo diving is and what it is not. It requires experienced scuba divers willing to make the necessary commitment to train and equip themselves to accept the added risks involved. That is to say, a person with the required attitude and aptitude to pursue responsible solo diving. This is true in other adventure sport activities such as solo rock climbing.


It is important to clarify what responsible solo scuba diving is. PADI views it as a form of technical diving and not for everybody. To responsibly engage in solo scuba diving, a diver must first be highly experienced, have a hundred or so buddy accompanied scuba dives, be absolutely self-reliant and apply the specialized procedures and equipment needed to engage in the activity. This includes, but is not limited to redundant air sources, specialized equipment configurations, specific dive planning, and management of solo diving problems and emergencies. When solo diving is performed within this description, we see a place for it. Responsible solo diving is not diving alone without the mental discipline, attitude or equipment. That said, no amount of redundant equipment can effectively back up a diver's brain better than another individual.

What concerns does PADI have with regard to solo diving
... Diving alone reduces the chance of survival regardless of the problem. Since 1989, there were at least 538 fatalities where it was clear divers were either intentionally diving solo, or became separated from a buddy and were de facto alone.

PADI's position is clear; solo diving proponents should advocate responsible solo diving on its own unique merits, requisite training, and equipment needs and not through sensationalized attempts to disparage a proven safety system, that has served the majority of recreational scuba divers well.

I remember an instructor on here talking about a distinctive specialty which he wrote as "self sufficient diving" or something. I am sure that PADI had approved it because he wasn't teaching solo diving, just more techniques to deal with "buddy separation". If I remeber correctly this included useage of pony bottles and other basics such as the rule of thirds. I believe it was accepted, but honestly can't remember.

Just thought I'd have to add a few bar to the discussion, since the original post suggested that PADI was so vehemently opposed to the concept of solo diving in the first place. From my perspective I think yes, PADI is right to advocate the buddy system - to draw analogies, it's why policemen work in pairs or why the F-16 pilot has a wingman.... I have no problem with solo diving but I do agree with the article from PADI - if you're going to do it, then go for it, but do it repsonsibly and with appropriate training. Do any of the other training agencies disagree? If so, they are in the minority.

Safe diving - however you choose to do it,

C.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Skills include:

• Situational Awareness
• Preplanning for all conceived emergencies and their responses
• Practicing emergency procedures (including/especially after training)

All of that is taught in PADI OW to one degree or another. Basic OW students are not taught "all conceived emergencies," but are taught how to avoid those we aren't talking about by not engaging in diving behaviors that lead to those emergencies. For example, we don't talk about what to do if they enter that cave on the reef and silt out, but we do talk about not going into ANY area with over-head obstructions as they have not been taught to dive in such an environment.

Identification and Solutions include:

• ‘Hanger Talk’ –ie- Sitting around talking with other’s, doing ‘what-if’s’ “What would you do if {this} happened”?
• Visualization and conceptualization –ie- thinking through problems on your own before they happen and planning a response. This goes a long way toward avoiding panic when emergencies actually happen.
• Formalized problem solving: The steps are:
  • concise problem statement
  • divergent thinking
  • convergent thinking
  • solution identification
  • solution implementation
  • continuing improvement.

Anybody have steps to add to that?

Again, all of that is taught in PADI OW. Of course, the formalized problem solving is summed up more concisely, but the intent and message is the same. Figure out what's wrong, figure out what to do about it, do that.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Nope nothing to add to that. I notice that those of us who cave dives seem to do a lot more of the what ifs. But how many new open water certified divers actually see how easy it is for things to go wrong? I had great OW instructors and we did cover some of this. However I see way too many new divers that are indestructible, at least they think so until something goes wrong.

Instructors can't teach humility. The need for humility can be stated, and instructors can show their own respect for the potential dangers of going under the water (balanced with not wanting to scare off new divers who are still nervous about what they are learning), but ultimately the character of the student is what it is.

But on that same note, how many technical divers have had great instruction and tons of experience and died due to over-confidence? How many instructors have died or have had students die, on what should have been simple dives? A lack of respect for the water isn't limited to OW students.

 

[waynne fowler]

"Some dives are safer done solo"?????

I'd say if that's the case the fault doesn't lie in the buddy system itself, but in the person implementing it. ANY dive is safer with a buddy..... but only the right buddy.
I think if you believe that to be true you don't have access or don't know how to develop a good buddy. I'd further contend that if you don't understand how to develop or employ a good buddy that you yourself are most probably lacking in that area and that is why you have such luck.

IMO the buddy system is a perfect idea who's problems lay in those that try and use it.

 

[Kingpatzer]

"Some dives are safer done solo"?????

I'd say if that's the case the fault doesn't lie in the buddy system itself, but in the person implementing it. ANY dive is safer with a buddy

I'd strongly disagree. Quite a few commercial and rescue dives are done with a single diver in the water - and for very good reason. They have a surface support team, and often have a diver ready to go in if necessary, but only one person in the water.

Now, if you mean that surface support counts as a buddy, then no dive is really solo -- since the coast guard is surface support, just from a distance