Inflator Elbow Positioning

[cool_hardware52]

Seems like an interesting point, and a valid question, to me; certianly not an attempt at 'bashing' DSS (which Tobin seems to believe it is).

This is not a "belief", it based on hearing this exact nonsense repeatedly from potential customers who had just spoken to some of our direct competitors.

I would ask a similar question, as I'm using a Sherwood Magnum regulator with a DIN adaptor, which leaves little real estate between the back of my head and the regulator. Trying to fit an inflator elbow in there would be, at best, uncomfortable.

With a properly set up rig The elbow is simply "not" between the reg and your head.

Worst case is that it would severely limit my mobility. I don't consider the rotating and misaligning the tank/valve/regulator assembly a valid option, as it could dimish the ability to operate the tank valve while wearing it.

Exactly how would it reduce your ability to operate the tank valve?

If you did choose to rotate the tank slightly, i.e. point the orifice slightly towards your left ear instead of straight ahead, the tank valve moves **Closer** to the diver. I've used this handy little "trick" to help divers who may not even be using a BP&W to be able to reach their valve.

I'm commenting on this, and asking the same question, does DSS provide an off-center option for inflator elbows?

No we do not. We don't offer "reef dragger" hoses, bungees, redundant wings, or combo octo inflators either.

Don't get me wrong, I think DSS makes some impressive products with great quality and excellent service. However, I think there's an opportunity for improvement here with some of the single tank products.

I can assure you that the centered location was selected to allow for easier venting without requiring the typical shoulder roll and shake offset hose can require.

We have sold many 1000's of wings, all with centered hoses.

Our users are happy with their purchases.

Multiple SB members have posted their firsthand experiences with our centered hoses, some explaining in detail how it's *NOT* the problem that you perceive it to be.

And yet you apparently remain convinced it's a design error in need of correction.

I give up.

Tobin

 

[ae3753]

I can assure you that the centered location was selected to allow for easier venting without requiring the typical shoulder roll and shake offset hose can require.

I have dove many designs over the years - Dive Rite, Halcyon, Oxycheq, OMS, Zeagle and DSS. Personally I use/teach venting with the butt dump, but I find that the center location promotes easy venting (highest point in the wing) and reduces the chance that someone will "trap air."

The inflator hose does not go between the head and the 1st stage. It sits underneath.

Here's a recent video, of another friend, using an LCD30. Head back, in trim, no issues with the center inflator hose.



Hope this clears things up.

Thanks.

 

[jswantek]

This is not a "belief", it based on hearing this exact nonsense repeatedly from potential customers who had just spoken to some of our direct competitors.

I did not speak with any competitors, but rather with people who actually own DSS products. I'm not trying to be judgemental, but you are.

With a properly set up rig The elbow is simply "not" between the reg and your head.

For the rig you're diving. I may set it up differently.

Exactly how would it reduce your ability to operate the tank valve?

Depending on how far I would have to rotate the tank, to prevent the inflator hose from being pinched between my head and my regulator, it may be out of reach for me. I'm not a gymnast and my flexability is limited.

If you did choose to rotate the tank slightly, i.e. point the orifice slightly towards your left ear instead of straight ahead, the tank valve moves **Closer** to the diver. I've used this handy little "trick" to help divers who may not even be using a BP&W to be able to reach their valve.

This is a good idea, thank you.

No we do not. We don't offer "reef dragger" hoses, bungees, redundant wings, or combo octo inflators either.

That's a pretty liberal assumption that I'm not a competent diver, is that really necessary?

I can assure you that the centered location was selected to allow for easier venting without requiring the typical shoulder roll and shake offset hose can require.

I've never questioned the venting capability, I've questioned if there were other options available from DSS

We have sold many 1000's of wings, all with centered hoses.

Our users are happy with their purchases.

Which is wonderful, and why I've been considering buying a DSS rig in the first place.

Multiple SB members have posted their firsthand experiences with our centered hoses, some explaining in detail how it's *NOT* the problem that you perceive it to be.

Again, I've spoken with other divers USING DSS WINGS that stated their displeasure, as well as shown me on their own setup the problems they've encountered.

And yet you apparently remain convinced it's a design error in need of correction.

I've never said it was a design error, I asked if there were other options available.

I give up.

Maybe I should too. Apparently I need a new backplate and wing setup more than you need my money. In my original post I stated that you made some excellent equipment and was putting a LOT of serious thought into purchasing a backplate and wing setup from you. If this is an example of the service I would recieve, perhaps my money would be best spent elsewhere.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I did not speak with any competitors, but rather with people who actually own DSS products.

Who are all these DSS users that are suffering elbow to head clearance troubles?

When people need help setting up DSS gear my phone usually rings, I'm not exactly hard to get in touch with.

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Maybe I should too. Apparently I need a new backplate and wing setup more than you need my money. In my original post I stated that you made some excellent equipment and was putting a LOT of serious thought into purchasing a backplate and wing setup from you. If this is an example of the service I would recieve, perhaps my money would be best spent elsewhere.

If you are convinced that centered corrugated hose is a problem you do need to look elsewhere for a BP&W, as I can assure you we won't be removing a beneficial feature in order to "solve" a non problem.

Tobin

 

[Oside Jimc]

Another video which clearly illiustrates this silly non-issue:
YouTube - SCUBA Kauai 2008

I have a hard time imagining how this could even be an issue, I've used my LCD30 with AL80, AL100, HP100, HP120 tanks, with and without a DIN adapter never had an issue here.

 

[Brandon]

In my case (also using a LCD30), because of the way that I position the BP/W on the tank, the elbow sits above the point where the tank curves, and below the point where the regulator is connected. In order to make the elbow hit the regulator, I would have to raise the wing upper on the tank, but then the upper tank cam-band would be too high on the tank (now, on my 15L steel the upper camband is at ~2-3cm from the curved part of the tank). So I find it hard to place the elbow at regulator's level. You could more easily lower it on the tank (and then it would hit the tank itself) if you wish (but then the regulator would sit too high).

Yupyup, that works great - built in tank height guide! LP85, HP80, HP100, AL80... all have trimmed out fine for me, no issues with anything bumping around back there, and very comfy.

When I built my rig for the first time I thought it was going to be a problem. Looking at it, it seems the center exhaust would be more at home in a doubles rig, nestling ever so snugly between the tanks and the manifold. It doesn't seem right, and you could almost convince yourself that you ordered the wrong wing, or that the guy cutting the holes in the wing was a little drunk that day.

But you have to toss aside the first reaction and trust in Tobin's design. Take it for a dive, hell, take it for a couple dozen dives. The new feeling dies off pretty quick once you realize that it works extremely well. Go play in some kelp with it - notice how you didn't get any tangled around your exhaust elbow this time? Isn't that cool! Wasn't dumping easy? Notice how you don't need to lean to one side any more? Schpiffy, eh?

Just out of curiosity where is your lower dump valve? It should be on the inside left of the wing. Ie you grab it with your left hand to dump. I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone is hitting their head on the elbow. All you need to do is cock it slightly and it comes right over the left shoulder and does not interfere with the reg, head, valve, or any other item. You do not have to have it pointing straight up. Loosen, tilt, re-tighten. End of problem.

That's how I currently have my LCD30 set up. One notch to the left.

Oh, and I think I'm going to give Apple a call here in a bit about the new laptop I've been researching for the past 6 months. The MacBook Pro is such a great product, but I want to see if they'll move the slot load for the DVD drive to the left hand side. Some people I was talking to said it'd be better that way, and I think it'd be an improvement for all the lefties out there. I put a LOT of thought into this - hopefully they want my money bad enough and are willing to change their design for me.

I mean - the worst they can say is no, right?

-B

 

[Gombessa]

Originally Posted by jswantek
Also, my post does not say that the wing would function better with an offset hose, as ******* *******, a.k.a. Brandon, was assuming. I was just wondering if the option had been explored. The phrase, 'an opportunity for improvement', in my field, is used in lieu of saying 'ya think maybe this'll work, too?'

Since I love dragging myself through the quagmire, that would be an opportunity for equivalence, not improvement

 

[Codyjp]

Much to do about nothing! The center elbow has no ill effect what so ever. I'd actually prefer to have it there, since the only time I do use my inflation dump is at the beginning of the dive when I'm vertical on the surface. Once I'm actually diving it is all lower dump all the time.

 

[Rainer]

I only have 400 dives or so on DSS wings, so probably not as much experience as most posting here, but I've NEVER had an issue with the center-mounted inflator. Oh well...