The deep air angle - split from Missouri Fatality

[David_57]

oh it must be safe then.

Here we go twisting words hate to tell you but diving is regarded by large percentage of the non diving population as a crazy extreme and very unsafe sport so by your logic maybe we should all quit diving while we are ahead LOL

 

[DCBC]

Maybe we need to present some data without deaths or injuries.

I have around 2000 hours on air between 150 and 250' and approximately 15,000 hours on helium between 200 and 1330'.

I've never had a depth related injury on air. When on helium, I've Oxtox'd once underwater due to a gas pusher error, had Type 1 DCS once while in a chamber and suffered preliminary HPNS once on descent at about 600' while in a chamber. Additionally, I have had some fairly serious equipment malfunctions and other problems related to the environment.

I'm not saying that nitrogen narcosis doesn't reduce a diver's safety. Deep diving has a higher degree of risk than shallow diving. Diving Trimix is ideal for certain applications, however it can be expensive, does not eliminate most of the danger from deep diving, nor is it available everywhere.

Like I said each diver must choose the level of risk that's acceptable to them. Hopefully they will use good judgment and dive within their safety envelope. Diving isn't like playing checkers; even people that take all of the precautions and have the training & experience can get hurt.

 

[Cave Diver]

I have around 2000 hours on air between 150 and 250' and approximately 15,000 hours on helium between 200 and 1330'.

I've never had a depth related injury on air.

Can I assume these hours are also tethered and with full comms? If so, I don't think this is an accurate comparison of safety.

 

[David_57]

Ok so maybe DCBC had some kind of commercial set up for some of his deep air dives, even so he was breathing air can we assume that he is still alive with all his faculties and has not mutated into some grotesque monster that survived only due to surface support. Say what you will deep air is deep air even if he dove deep with surface support. Added to this I know many people that have been diving to 200ft + up here in the St Lawrence and still doing it with 100's some 1,000's of dives under their belt. Myself I prefer to use Trimix once over 150ft but would not push this as the gospel that's just my personal comfort zone.

 

[gNats]

I think race car drivers are nuts. No. I think they are stupid. Absolutely dumb.

I mean think about it. Several cars in a small confined space racing around the track at high speeds.

Cars BLOW UP for crying out loud! I mean, after Dale Ernhardt's death, why do people CONTINUE TO DO THIS SPORT? There are all sorts of STUDIES that prove that driving in a race car is a seriously RISKY SPORT. What business do these people have taking on that risk? I think it is nuts. There have been 56 deaths since 1948 at the Indianapolis speedway alone. They should shut that place down.

Personally, I think anyone who drives a car smaller than a 4 door sedan at speed's greater than 65mph are just one breath away from being another driver doomed to die because of recklessness. And, they deserve to die for their stupidity.

*********************

Have I pissed anyone off? GOOD. Listen to all of you sitting here trying to move a mountain.

If you are diving PERIOD on any gas at ANY DEPTH of water you had better be a faithful and religious person. Because it is dangerous. And, there is only so much you can do to keep yourself alive, without staying on the grass. The rest is up to Jesus, Buddha, or plain fate. Pick your own religious icon.

I've worked with insurance providers and they list "Do you SCUBA" on the private apps. If you check "yes" they either hit you with a higher premium or turn you down. The app doesn't ask if you dive Trimix. It doesn't ask if you stay above 100'. It doesn't ask if you have a pony bottle.

It asks only if you SCUBA. The risk starts there and they don't qualify how much risk you take based on your personal beliefs, comforts, training, or gear. Putting I am DIR on the app doesn't do crap. Saying you never dive below 100' won't insure your family.

It's black or white. there is a risk. you assume the risk you want based on your personal lifestyle. If you think others are assuming more than you, well, how the hell do you think man learned how to fly? Walk on the moon? Somebody was willing to take that risk. People jump out of perfectly good planes everday. I won't do it. But I don't think they are stupid for doing so. Guess what? Even the most cautious parachuter may die doing it. But, it is not my place to comment on their stupidity or risk. Either pass along my condolences or shut the hell up.


Do you think that there were forums filled with race car drivers and enthusiasts sitting around arguing about whether Dale E. was stupid for driving the car that day? Arguing about the risks of driving 188 mph opposed to 166 mph? Or talking about his greed at trying to win another coveted title and killing himself in the process?


This thread was started because someone freaking DIED. None of the posters complaining about deep air knew this man or his family. You are entitled to your opinion. As others are entitled to theirs.

If you want to debate about the virtues of trimix over air or whether 100' feet is too deep, there are other forums for that discussion.

I believe this thread and forum was to report a diving accident, and let others in the community know the facts as they are released. Since very little facts are known about this tragedy (yes, a loss of life is a tragedy, even if you don't agree how it occurred) I don't see how there can be any gainful education learned at this point.

For goodness sakes. It's like a room full of kindergartners.

 

[DCBC]

Can I assume these hours are also tethered and with full comms? If so, I don't think this is an accurate comparison of safety.

I fail to see how the equipment a diver is wearing contributes to his/her ability to dive safely when it comes to nitrogen narcosis. Certainly if a tethered diver ran into a problem, he could be removed from the hazard. On the other hand, being in communication with the surface allows the diver to be monitored. There was obviously nothing experienced by the tender that would have lead him to suspect that I wasn't safe, or the dive would have been immediately terminated. Also, there was never any indication that the quality of my work being performed was sub-standard during this time period. I suggest that this is suitable evidence that I was able to perform complex tasks at depth while breathing air at depth. Thousands of commercial divers do this daily.

The only dive I terminated on air resulting from narcosis, was one that I did to 250'. As soon as I noticed that I was starting to experience some difficulty with direction, I terminated the dive. I was using scuba at the time. Nitrogen narcosis isn't the Boogie Man. You can feel the affects build and can terminate the dive accordingly.

To answer your question, of the commercial time I've listed, only about 100 hours would qualify on scuba over 150'. Although I haven't checked my other logs, I suspect that I could add an additional 300 recreational hours and another 200 hours with the Navy to this figure (scuba breathing air over 150'). Considering my years at DCIEM as a test diver, there would be a considerable amount more time to add, but that's not with scuba.

 

[PfcAJ]

I just want to know why nearly every accident that occurs from a dive greater than about 100ft has an END greater than 100ft. I'm pretty sure you know why, but you don't want to say it because it would negate your argument.

 

[Scott]

They went to 179' on air. Don't know if this was the planned dive or depth, but seeing as it was a tech deep class, deep water is definitly what they were going for.

Has anyone confirmed that they were diving on air or just speculating becuase of the course? On dive 12 you can use trimix.

 

[LiteHedded]

I have around 2000 hours on air between 150 and 250' and approximately 15,000 hours on helium between 200 and 1330'.

I've never had a depth related injury on air. When on helium, I've Oxtox'd once underwater due to a gas pusher error, had Type 1 DCS once while in a chamber and suffered preliminary HPNS once on descent at about 600' while in a chamber. Additionally, I have had some fairly serious equipment malfunctions and other problems related to the environment.

I'm not saying that nitrogen narcosis doesn't reduce a diver's safety. Deep diving has a higher degree of risk than shallow diving. Diving Trimix is ideal for certain applications, however it can be expensive, does not eliminate most of the danger from deep diving, nor is it available everywhere.

Like I said each diver must choose the level of risk that's acceptable to them. Hopefully they will use good judgment and dive within their safety envelope. Diving isn't like playing checkers; even people that take all of the precautions and have the training & experience can get hurt.

then why are we arguing?

i'm going to ignore the 'it's expensive' thing because it's a silly argument.
no one said it eliminated "most" of the danger from deep diving. what it does is take narcosis out of the equation. and you've admitted that narcosis reduces a diver's safety.
and you're right, it's not available everywhere. but I'm pretty sure it was available to this diver.

deep air proponents readily admit that diving deep air is LESS SAFE but rush in to point out that it cant be narcosis that contributed to an incident. I don't get it.

 

[LiteHedded]

I fail to see how the equipment a diver is wearing contributes to his/her ability to dive safely when it comes to nitrogen narcosis. Certainly if a tethered diver ran into a problem, he could be removed from the hazard. On the other hand, being in communication with the surface allows the diver to be monitored. There was obviously nothing experienced by the tender that would have lead him to suspect that I wasn't safe, or the dive would have been immediately terminated. Also, there was never any indication that the quality of my work being performed was sub-standard during this time period. I suggest that this is suitable evidence that I was able to perform complex tasks at depth while breathing air at depth. Thousands of commercial divers do this daily.

The only dive I terminated on air resulting from narcosis, was one that I did to 250'. As soon as I noticed that I was starting to experience some difficulty with direction, I terminated the dive. I was using scuba at the time. Nitrogen narcosis isn't the Boogie Man. You can feel the affects build and can terminate the dive accordingly.

To answer your question, of the commercial time I've listed, only about 100 hours would qualify on scuba over 150'. Although I haven't checked my other logs, I suspect that I could add an additional 300 recreational hours and another 200 hours with the Navy to this figure (scuba breathing air over 150'). Considering my years at DCIEM as a test diver, there would be a considerable amount more time to add, but that's not with scuba.

you're just super.