The deep air angle - split from Missouri Fatality

[PfcAJ]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/329982-missouri-fatality.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...8-egyptian-red-sea-sharm-diving-fatality.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/312005-possible-death-oriskany.html (added because of the depth of the dive)
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/320007-spiegel-incident.html (non fatal)
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/310700-eagles-nest-cave-diver-death.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/238448-cape-may-nj-diver-death.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/300309-tragic-loss-nocal-dive-community.html

These are all the reports on scubaboard from October of last year till now (that I found) that resulted in death or severe injury for the diver while diving deeper than 100ft. All of them had an END greater than 100ft.

Interesting. A correlation of 1 between death/injury on a dive greater than 100ft, and an END of over 100ft.

There ya go, DCBC. Some statistics. How big of a sample size do you want? Do I need to post another list of 60+ names? How large does the body count need to go before this stuff stoped being TAUGHT? Thats my issue. Its taught to people. This guy died on a class where he was trusting his instructor to teach him how to dive safely to greater depths, and he died trying to learn that.

 

[plot]

so now its 100 feet, you guys don't think anyone should go below 100 feet on air? correct?

i can understand not wanting to hang out below 100' for an extended period, but not going at all just because you're on air seems super duper ultra-conservative to me.

for all we know, this diver had touched 179', and was doing a safety stop at 60' when something went wrong and he bolted. nobody has claimed yet he was at 179' just lookin around when he decided to hold his breath and see if he could make it to the surface.

i think you're putting way to much weight into your END of 100 correlation which is going to make people think as long as they're at 99' they're perfectly safe no matter what they do.

 

[PfcAJ]

I hope you're kidding.

The point of that is to show you that getting hurt on a deep dive is highly correlated with a high END. Will you automatically die at 101ft? No. However, the deeper you go (without helium) the closer to that razor's edge you get. Diving with low ENDs doesn't have the body count that high ENDs do.

I don't dive on air at all (unless its some 30ft reef dive), everything else gets 32% or gas. Period. Past ~110, you bet I'm on gas.

Plot, I see where you're going with this, and I see why you think its a little strange. Since day one, you've been told the air limit is 130ft, now you're hearing something different. This is normal. Unfortunately, diving deeper adds in some very serious issues (reserve gas, emergency procedures, ascent strategies, limited time at depth), and having a clear head is needed to adapt to any dynamic changes occurring at depth.

Plus, 179' is past the course limit :headscratch: for this dive. Something went wrong before they even got there.

 

[gNats]

so now its 100 feet, you guys don't think anyone should go below 100 feet on air? correct?

i can understand not wanting to hang out below 100' for an extended period, but not going at all just because you're on air seems super duper ultra-conservative to me.

for all we know, this diver had touched 179', and was doing a safety stop at 60' when something went wrong and he bolted. nobody has claimed yet he was at 179' just lookin around when he decided to hold his breath and see if he could make it to the surface.
i think you're putting way to much weight into your END of 100 correlation which is going to make people think as long as they're at 99' they're perfectly safe no matter what they do.

Very good point Plot. The dive computer was quickly reviewed by the persons on shore before it was handed over to the authorities. It showed obviously Max Depth. Nobody at the quarry that day did a thorough check of the computer to understand the dive log or the dive plan.

All we know is that the computer did reach 179. Where in the dive is anybody's guess.

 

[Puffer Fish]

I would COMPLETELY agree with the standards in the industry have fallen off the chart. But it doesn't just apply to divers. TRUST ME I've seen instructors do things that would FREAK YOU OUT. I had an instructor ask me to get him more weight, then more , the more adding (10lbs)... I stopped and asked him if we could talk about his problem. He YELLED at me, holding his inflator hose up and showing me that he knew how to descend. I asked him if he was deflating his dry suit... His answer..... "Oh yea, I forgot about that" I had an INSTRUCTOR as me "How do you get in and out of these Zodiacs"? You're kidding me right? Just because you pass what's equivilant to an open book test, doesn't mean your "qualified". I pay absolutely no attention to ANYONE'S cert card. It's amazing that shops certify some people as instructors and equally amazing that they have no idea what the legal ramifications are for putting the instructor number on someone's cert cards.

I feel the same way about anyone that does not know how to get out of a parachute over big swells...but cannot figure out how that relates to this event.

Not a fan of deep air, but we don't know enough information to discuss the actual events, so things tend to degrade into a war of words.

Hopefully we will know more, and can learn some lesson from this tragic event.

Note: I only use air if someone makes me.

 

[DCBC]

You get trained and dive within your personal safety envelope, using your best judgment. Part of managing risk is realizing that not all risk can be eliminated. Individually we either reject or accept it after all the circumstances have been weighted.

Why ice dive if you don't have to? You're increasing the risk.
Why dive in a cave if you don't have to? You're increasing the risk.
Why dive in current? You're increasing the risk.
Why penetrate a wreck? You're increasing the risk.
Why dive using a CCR? You're increasing the risk.
Why dive deeper than you can safely perform a CESA (regardless of mixture)? You're increasing the risk.

Why? Each of us have individual freedom and are allowed to assess the personal risk to ourselves and make a decision accordingly.

Some people will promote giving "non-swimmers" certification cards, cave diving, using a CCR, Trimix, or whatever and at the same time, criticize the activity of others. What makes their "brand of risk" acceptable, while another isn't?

In my book, this is the height of ARROGANCE. Who is anyone to make a judgment on how other people dive?

 

[DCBC]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/329982-missouri-fatality.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...8-egyptian-red-sea-sharm-diving-fatality.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/312005-possible-death-oriskany.html (added because of the depth of the dive)
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/320007-spiegel-incident.html (non fatal)
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/310700-eagles-nest-cave-diver-death.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/238448-cape-may-nj-diver-death.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/300309-tragic-loss-nocal-dive-community.html

These are all the reports on scubaboard from October of last year till now (that I found) that resulted in death or severe injury for the diver while diving deeper than 100ft. All of them had an END greater than 100ft.

Interesting. A correlation of 1 between death/injury on a dive greater than 100ft, and an END of over 100ft.

There ya go, DCBC. Some statistics. How big of a sample size do you want? Do I need to post another list of 60+ names? How large does the body count need to go before this stuff stoped being TAUGHT? Thats my issue. Its taught to people. This guy died on a class where he was trusting his instructor to teach him how to dive safely to greater depths, and he died trying to learn that.

PfcAJ,

These references prove nothing. Most of these cases show the diver to have complications due to decompression sickness, air embolism or heart attack. Narcosis was not even considered to be an issue.

You seem to think that posting names of people who die as a result of diving over 100' seem to correlate somehow with Nitrogen Narcosis. Why is that? You post examples that include a cave diver using a CCR. How does that directly relate to narcosis?

As you fail to show anything surrounding narcosis, I must think that the case that you are trying to make surrounds "deeper diving." If this is the case, it's a different topic and one that I'm happy to discuss with you.

As I have already pointed-out deep diving has additional hazards. In many cases, divers plan to go deep without the proper equipment, experience, or training. At other times, they have poor buoyancy control and they end-up much deeper than their training and experience calls for (such as the case with the woman and her husband that you listed who died of decompression complications/AGE). In both cases, accidents happen and people unfortunately get hurt.

 

[David_57]

Yes seen this so many times where some don't dive deeper than 100ft EAD proponent uses an accident to push their beliefs pretty sad if you ask me especially when its a fatality, I have over 60 dives between 100ft and 152 ft on air with no ill effects.

I feel sad for the divers family and will not jump any conclusions until I see some kind of an official report, and even at that would still have some doubts, better to hear it from the person he was diving with before jumping to any conclusions and grand standing your opinions based on twisting statistics.

 

[DivingCRNA]

Yes seen this so many times where some don't dive deeper than 100ft EAD proponent uses an accident to push their beliefs pretty sad if you ask me especially when its a fatality, I have over 60 dives between 100ft and 152 ft on air with no ill effects.

I feel sad for the divers family and will not jump any conclusions until I see some kind of an official report, and even at that would still have some doubts, better to hear it from the person he was diving with before jumping to any conclusions and grand standing your opinions based on twisting statistics.

I have 65 dives between 100 feet and 185 feet on air with no ill effect. Maybe we need to present some data without deaths or injuries.

185 was riskier, but I knew the risk doing it, it was not a blind, trust me dive.

 

[LiteHedded]

Yes seen this so many times where some don't dive deeper than 100ft EAD proponent uses an accident to push their beliefs pretty sad if you ask me especially when its a fatality, I have over 60 dives between 100ft and 152 ft on air with no ill effects.

I feel sad for the divers family and will not jump any conclusions until I see some kind of an official report, and even at that would still have some doubts, better to hear it from the person he was diving with before jumping to any conclusions and grand standing your opinions based on twisting statistics.

oh it must be safe then.