"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[Herk_Man]

Let's get something straight here. The only reason I need to go get instruction and get certified is so that a dive shop is going to be willing to rent or sell me their services. My certification reduces their liability. With the exception of a few overbearing governments, there are no scuba police out there only allowing me to dive if I have a piece of paper.

So if I have my own equipment and the capability to fill my own tanks, then I can dive (almost) anywhere I want and it is perfectly legal. For the majority of people this would be unwise because they need the instruction to understand the dangers of scuba and the skills needed to overcome malfunctions. Most just need the calm reassurance of an instructor to get themselves to take that first breath underwater.

But for myself and to a certain extent the OP, and others for that matter, certification is just a necessary evil to gain access to dive services. And advocating it in this community may potentially cause a stupid person to do something stupid. But that just falls into the category of being responsible and accountable for our own actions and choices.

So let's put on our big boy pants and stop decrying the NEED for pieces of paper or the stupidity of doing something without one.

 

[Herk_Man]

We all put trust in our buddys --especially in the technical diving community. And our buddys put trust in us; this is different because one of the buddies was completely unqualified. Period.

I have to say, in my opinion, your analogies are mistaken --if anything they disprove your point. What Gambitt is suggesting is that a fighter pilot says to a sport pilot, "hey, I'm a fighter pilot, want to go flying with me, I'll let you take off, fly and land the jet." Most states require hunter safety courses. We don't allow unlicensed drivers to head out on the road without an instructor. As you say, the list goes on.

More importantly, Gambitt suggests this should be the norm in diving. If someone has a pal who is willing, you simply don't need an instructor. As you can tell by the concensus of the most experienced divers on this board, mentoring is desirable; crazy risks are not.

Jeff

Guess what. I'm a fighter pilot. Every unqualified person I've ever flown with has been offered the stick. I'm still here.

 

[Hoomi]

Granted, in a fighter plane, it's rather difficult to get far enough away from the controls, that you can't quickly take the stick back and recover things before it becomes a catastrophe.

Unfortunately, not all dive buddies stay that close.

 

[Herk_Man]

Again, that's their choice. And during actual certification, if the dive instructor has a personal dive emergency, he's on his own. There's a saying in scuba. The instructor always dives alone. Not any different than the situation being discussed.

 

[EzeeDiver]

Hi Gambitt:

Did your friend try to teach you anything? Did you learn anything from your dive? If yes, then he was instructing you, and you were his student.

Did all this really happen? On this planet? If yes, then it was a "real world experience".

So your "instructor* taught you, his "student", some skills and some knowledge, and it was a "real world experience".

Now, most of us agree with you that "real world experience" is important, but we can't just take your word for it: We need you to PROVE you have it. So, how are you going to prove to everybody that you have it?

You guessed it: A "piece of paper".

While not in any way agreeing to the OP, which was not a smart thing to do, I will say this about pieces of paper...

Was on a dive in the Gulf of Mexico with a LDS owner/instructor and several less experienced divers. We get to the dive site and he says that everyone has a Nitrox tank and an air tank. My buddy and I say, ok we're Nitrox certified. Next I asked for the analyzer to check the O2 content. The response being, I didn't bring one, trust me it's about 32%. EEEK! Asked the boat captain for the Nitrox log and analyzer...no success there either. Two of the other divers were not Nitrox trained and not up on risks of oxygen toxicity. EEEK!

So, in the words of Inigo Montoya..."lemme try anna summa things up..." Instuctor takes people on boat dive, gives Nitrox to divers not certified in enriched air, brings no analyzer, boat captain has no analyzer/log book, and he says "tust me." All his instructor card says is that someone certified him to teach, not that he makes good decisions. IMO, I stupidly did the dive, but promptly purchased my own analyzer so that would not happen again.

My only point is that a piece of paper does not mean that person makes good decisions. (my Nitrox card did not keep me from making a dumb decision).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Nobody needs a "piece of paper" to dive ... which is fortunate, I suppose, because with all the dive classes I've ever taken I never got one. All I ever get is some silly plastic card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tstormdiver]

What he did was not "incredibly dangerous" and it was his decision to make. And he made an observation while doing it that he felt safer on this complex dive than he felt with "professional" instructors.

It may have been his decision, but what do you mean, "What he did was not "incredibly dangerous""? Any overhead environment whether real (cave, wreck,..) or virtual (decompression) can be dangerous, especially if you are not aware of ALL the risks & the procedures to handle the risks. With an hour of decompression, he might as well been an hour back in a cave. Nearly the same difference, other than the ceiling for decompression is theoretical & invisible rather than rock. I'm sure you're aware in an overhead environment you can't just go to the surface if the re's a problem. It must be taken care of underwater. A rebreather is a highly advanced piece of machinery that is keeping you alive down there. Lots of things can go wrong with them very quickly & you may not know it until,... too late. Did the OP know what PPO2 he needed to maintain? Did he know how to handle a loop flood & go to a bailout bottle & recalculate the decompression from there, if needed? Did he know how to handle a helmet flood? A whole myriad of "what if's".

I did a "trust me" dive with an OW instructor into Vortex's cave to the grate. He had done it many times before & had no problems,..... until that time. It almost cost me my life. When I returned home my instructor (also a cave & technical instructor) chewed my rear & put my experience in this light, "you put a bullet in the chamber, you spun the the chamber, you pointed the gun to your head, you pulled the trigger & the the chamber was empty,.... however the bullet was in the very next chamber. You went & did something above your training without the proper training & were lucky. You played the odds & won,....... that time." I can only imagine if he were given the call to pull my body out of that cave..... That there convinced me that if I was going to pursue that avenue of diving,..... I needed the training. Many people won't understand that until they have an incident with major pucker factor they survive or when they take that last breath knowing what is going to happen & not being able to do anything about it because they lack the skills

That "piece of paper" (aka training/ certification) teaches you how to handle those situations that can arise. Yes, if you really want to place your life completely in another's hands, there's no one to stop you. In today's world, training for most any type of diving, especially for advanced types of diving, is available & most of the time very affordable. Why risk it? Find an instructor you're comfortable with & you feel is competent in the field of diving you want to pursue- they're out there, though it may take some effort to find. It isn't rocket science.

 

[captain]

What do you all think of the folks who buy a ride to the space station on a Russian rocket. Would any of you non trained astronauts do it and is it incredibly stupid.

 

[Gombessa]

What do you all think of the folks who buy a ride to the space station on a Russian rocket. Would any of you non trained astronauts do it and is it incredibly stupid.

This one's pretty easy captain, just think it through. There's a big difference between being a passive passenger in a spaceship (or airliner) being piloted by someone else, and being given your own space shuttle to pilot, with an experienced astronaut in another shuttle next to yours trying to talk you through the controls on the coms.

 

[Matt S.]

What do you all think of the folks who buy a ride to the space station on a Russian rocket. Would any of you non trained astronauts do it and is it incredibly stupid.

Actually, the paid Soyuz tourists go through a lot of training, and I believe it is possible to flunk out. Your checkbook does not guarantee you a ride. You need to develop some skills to handle emergencies. I believe it takes about one year to prepare for the trip.