Getting in Over Your Head

[MXGratefulDiver]

OK, here's my guess for what BWRAF means ...

I always thought it meant that it was a rough boat ride out to the dive site ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

Something I've asked about in other forums and threads is how do we get students to head our advice as instructors when they go on vacation and see so-called "professionals" violating the safe, conservative standards and guidelines we teach in class?

I don't have a good answer to that question. I don't think there is one. When resorts and charters are willing to ignore agency recommendations on nearly every dive, it really doesn't matter too much what we teach in class.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

All the more reason to take more time on these subjects. I know in nearly every classroom session I talk about the stupidity and recklessness of many of those places and people. Every class watches the deceptively easy way to die video. Every student I have is told that just because someone has a pro rating does not mean they know what they are doing. And that they have the divers best interests at heart. Its why I train them to not be dependent on anyone except their buddy and themselves. And if its an instabuddy to not depend on them. If we don't emphasize personal responsibility then when a new diver dies doing something they were not sufficiently warned or educated about their instructor shares some of the blame. You can't fix stupid. But stupid is different than uninformed. To not warn divers about why they should not go into overheads in graphic terms is IMO wrong. To warn them and then take them into them is ignorant. My own ow class had some warnings, but then we got told how great the ballroom at ginnie was at night. No one with cave or even cavern. Including the instructor. Me not knowing any better. I warn my students about these trips now and to not do them. Wish I had been told.

 

[TSandM]

Kingpatzer, I think you nailed it.

Good habits that require effort will erode with time, unless the person is really diligent (and even then, as I have learned to my own chagrin). If the person is surrounded by other, more senior people who aren't observing those good procedures, the habits will erode much faster. It's really easy to say, "Well, I didn't think we were supposed to do that, but everybody else seems to think it's okay . . . " That's how I ended up at 130 feet on my 14th dive.

Even people who, at heart, are safety-conscious and want to be careful, can be sucked down a slippery slope of steadily increasing risk. And every dive that goes fine reinforces the idea that the decisions they are making are reasonable ones. Look at the current thread in the Cave Diving forum, about the fellow whose newly certified friend is diving in the caverns. He's done several dives and everything has gone well, so he's even more convinced that the cautions he's getting are just fear-mongering from fuddy-duddies.

There are some people who are simply so wrong-headed that no message is ever going to reach them. Far sadder are the people who were originally well-trained and accepted the messages of safety, only to have them eroded over time by a combination of complacency and observation of others. When the Devil's Throat is an acceptable open water dive, how do you convince someone that depth and overheads are significant risks that should not be taken lightly?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Something I've asked about in other forums and threads is how do we get students to head our advice as instructors when they go on vacation and see so-called "professionals" violating the safe, conservative standards and guidelines we teach in class?

I don't have a good answer to that question. I don't think there is one. When resorts and charters are willing to ignore agency recommendations on nearly every dive, it really doesn't matter too much what we teach in class.

Oh I think it does ... you just have to be able to come up with a way to help the student draw their own conclusions about what constitutes a prudent decision.

My most recent AOW student is a good example. She came to me expressly because she was going to Cozumel with a friend who had the Devil's Throat dive on his bucket list. By the time she completed the class she had decided for herself that it wasn't a good idea to do the dive.

Had she not taken the class, she'd have simply followed him down on a "trust me" dive, with even less competence than she currently has.

I didn't make the decision for her ... she made it on her own after having been given enough information to understand why it probably wasn't a good choice for her.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

To be clear - I'm not abdicating my responsibility to train my students correctly. But I also know that they're headed off on a trip where just about nothing I taught them will be followed. I have to be honest that it leaves me feeling somewhat dejected when I stop to think about it.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And Dave I'm sorry to say that it should. As a responsible instructor I also feel bad when I hear of a student going to a place where the recommendations (not rules) are not followed. So if for no other reason I go so far as to find out where they are going and personally contact the op when possible. I ask about the dives, the depths, and what safety procedures they follow. IF there is ANYTHING I don't like I inform them that I will recommend my students not dive with them. If a shop assures me that all recommendations are followed I will gladly recommend them. If they do dive with that op and come back and tell me that things were not as they expected or promised you will see me post that on this board with names and dates. And I will praise those that do.

Again it is my responsibility to try and do my best to insure that the divers I turn out don't need to be led and watched. And hopefully have enough sense to see when a dive is not in their best interests. The best thing we can do is try to get our students to the point that THEY will follow the recommended limits of their training regardless of what some DM or Guide does. There are several dead divers who did not do this. They went along and paid dearly.

To new divers reading this thread: OVERHEADS ARE NOT FOR YOU!! Those seemingly innocuous swim thrus are not always what they seem. There is one in Monterey that at the base is wide enough for two divers easily. Get near the top though and there are spots that can snag or even trap a tank or diver who has poor buoyancy control. I know they are tempting. But if they are more than a body length and you and your buddy cannot go thru, stay out. If you go to the Florida springs and your instructor wants to take you into the ballroom at Ginnie- ask to see his cave instructor card. Or even his full cave card. When we went we were encouraged to pull ourselves down into the ear and look inside. We had no lights but there were divers in the cave and they did. I saw enough to get tempted and that was, in hindsight, an extremely reckless thing for my instructor to do. Those acts are the things that to me encourage foolishness.

I don't do caves. I do wrecks and wreck penetration, I also have ice training and will be going back for more to enable me to teach it as well. Those places are no place for an OW diver. Swimthrus on "clean wrecks" are in some ways more dangerous to the OW or AOW diver who has not been fully informed of the risks. The clean ones can give a false sense of security to the uninformed. "Oh it's been cleaned. It'll be ok to go in." That attitude can kill. Wrecks deteriorate over time, clean wrecks change during the sinking process, plates buckle and bend, conduits can come loose as can piping. All those things can kill the diver who thinks they do not need to take precautions because they can see the other way out. It is still an overhead. Never forget that.

And never forget that the only person who cares about you 100% is you and your family. That DM that leads you into these cool but dangerous places cares about the tip you'll give him.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

If we don't emphasize personal responsibility then when a new diver dies doing something they were not sufficiently warned or educated about their instructor shares some of the blame. You can't fix stupid. But stupid is different than uninformed. To not warn divers about why they should not go into overheads in graphic terms is IMO wrong. To warn them and then take them into them is ignorant.

I have been working and still do work as a Lanai Cathedrals guide, for over 2 years. My OW cert was in '92 when I was living on Kauai and Tunnels was my regular hang out. In every briefing I give for every dive with an overhead, I graphically describe all the similarly overhead guided diver deaths I have heard of in the entire State of Hawaii. It takes no time at all.

In each of those briefings, I tell my charges that it is their choice; I do not force divers to go inside. If they chose they can meet us at the fairly easy to find exit (keep the wall on your left, look for the hole at 50' depth, wait there). We pretty much go to one of the Cathedrals every day and a single diver who choses not to join us inside may experience their first few minutes without a buddy, until I and the rest of the divers who came specifically to tour the inside come back out.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

And never forget that the only person who cares about you 100% is you and your family. That DM that leads you into these cool but dangerous places cares about the tip you'll give him.

​

Here is a picture of my brother at Shark's Cove. His memory cells are half as old as mine, but I'm relatively sure he had completed all my OW requirements (except perhaps the PIC) 30 minutes prior to this picture.

His mother, who is a behavioral psychologist specializing in the developmental mind, knows me better than all but maybe 2 people alive today. She has that pic framed and mounted in her office. They did not tip me, I did not charge them anything.

I treat all my charges very similar to how I treat family.

 

[ronbeau]

All beginning scuba divers are taught in their instruction that they should not go into environments like caves without proper training. Yet it happens more than we might expect, and, sadly, it often leads to tragedy. Ironically, a number of people to whom these tragedies occur are the open water scuba instructors who taught their students not to go into caves without cave training.

The purpose of this thread is to explore the reasons why this happens. Anyone can participate meaningfully. Newly-minted divers can describe the kinds of warning they received or didn't receive. People who have been tempted can talk about the allure of that temptation, whether they submitted to it or not. Experienced divers can relate events they have witnessed that shed light on this. Anyone can give opinions about what can be done to help deal with this. People who are not sure what kind of training is needed or why it is needed can ask questions.

Even though this constitutes advanced diving to be sure, I am putting it in the Basic Diving thread because I want to include all divers in it and get everyone's perspective. I also would like this to serve as something of a warning to new or less experienced divers who might feel that temptation some day.

As for me, when doing OW dives, I always sought out the ones with swim throughs, and I just loved going through them. I did some supervised cavern diving in Mexico and loved it. Other than that, I never ventured into a cave, but I have to admit that I also never really had the opportunity. Who knows what would have happened had I had the chance to venture--oh, just a few feet--into a benign looking cave before I had my training?

I finished my OW training in June of 2004. It was emphatically stated that OW divers should never enter any location without clear and direct access to the surface. The examples given included wrecks, cave, caverns etc.

At the time I took the class the instructor had been teaching for more than 25 years and also happened to be a high school science teacher.