Getting in Over Your Head

[CamG]

Greetings John and I love the play on words!
To give a definitive answer to your question, I was very well taught about the specific hazards of over head environments both cave and wreck.
It was explained by MSDT Mark very well what the concerns were and what advanced training they required. Not only did he take the time to explain this but offer books and other information for further study should we want to study it more.

It was reinforced over and over that we were to dive to our level of training and experience and how COMPLACENCY is the divers worst enemy!
Should we deceive ourselves into thinking our skills are ready for a more challenging environment it usually ends poorly.
In my OW, AOW, RESCUE, DM, ADV. NITROX / DECO, CAVERN / INTRO. classes this training has remained constant and unwavering.
In this time I have had three different instructors yet they all shared the same philosophy.

To offer a possible theory to why this "incident" in which you are using for an example I would have to look at the individuals motivation and form other information form other sources it was common for risk type behavior.
If a individual is a thrill junky they will be attracted to high risk activity whether diving in a overhead, skydiving, climbing, etc.
The danger in any of these environments is to be not properly trained or be trained and become COMPLACENT!
With the information that is our there today for independent research some individuals may feel they do not need to sit through the class and take the training.
THIS IS CRAZY AND COMPLETELY INSANE RELYING ON EGO BASED LOGIC!
Darwin's theory of natural selection is alive and well in those individuals.
The Reaper is waiting to end their lives on futile reasoning!

I think that progressive penetration school of thought might have been a factor in this particular case.
Why would you push to such lengths to avoid being properly trained?
This is the question you are seeking.
If it is any comfort to the diving community this is the first NON - TRAINED fatality for some time. Given any fatality is one to many and I agree that WE ALL need to prevent any situation like this from happening again, BUT HOW?
You can not prevent ignorance to those people who KNOW IT ALL AND CAN TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES! EGO.....EGO......EGO!
Ever see a OW student tell the instructor how to dive? I have and it was scary and unsettling beyond belief!
Could I see this guy killing himself in a overhead environment?
ABSOLUTELY!

Our society for as far as we have come we are still the same!
It is amazing that fatalities are as low as they are.
One has only to go the local quarry to see the complacent multitude of divers who have allowed their skills to deteriorate to a dangerous level.
I have been shocked and awed this season by just the question you are posing.
I fear that in the near future it is going to become a major issue that will need to be addressed.
BEST ADVICE I EVER HEADED....RELAX....TAKE YOUR TIME.....MASTER YOUR SKILLS....KEEP THEM WELL PRACTICED.....AND NEVER EVER BECOME COMPLACENT!

I am sorry if my tone has offended anyone but this has been a concern of mine for some time as well. I am not a imposing my way or the high way diver but am genuinely concerned for my fellow diver.
Please take my comments with that in mind, I only would like to help.
If you are irritated feel free to PM me and we will talk it out.

CamG Keep diving....Keep training....Keep learning!

 

[SCUBASailor]

What is BWRAF?

 

[boulderjohn]

What is BWRAF?

PADI's acronym for the 5 steps in its pre-dive buddy check.

 

[avaseliades]

First I'll go back to my beginning as a dive instructor; this threads not ready for my beginning as a certified OW diver.

My first real dive instructor job lasted 3 years (north shore Oahu), and during those 3 summers the regular OW training site was Shark's Cove; a famous cavern site / infamous cave site.

Nearly all students can pretty much see myself and every other Oahu shore instructor/guide guiding newbs on fairly serious cavern dives, during their OW training dives.

I mean my students could see other instructors "cavern" guiding, and other instructors students could see me "cavern" guiding; any given day.

The shop I worked for did a lot of local certs. Most of my local students lived within 30 minutes of Shark's Cove. 90% of those kids WILL be under rock in less than 10 dives after certification.

A prudent instructor teaches the skill set necessary for the local conditions, right?

I tend to agree. I did my AOW certification in Oahu and was very happy the instructors not only took the time to teach basics but also to incorporate some education on the local area. This included some swim throughs of the local lava formations. While they did this they made it perfectly clear that we shouldn't continue the practice without proper training, but understood that many of the local dive companies frequented these areas. Bottom-line is its up to the diver to stay within his/her limits.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That's really interesting. I wonder if there is a difference in that response between men and women?

Oh yes ... most definitely. With few exceptions I've found that women tend to be more cautious divers than men. But I think that's at least partly a genetic thing that applies to any aspect of life ... which is probably why God put women in charge of the babies ... otherwise by now our species would've gone the way of the dodo bird ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[redacted]

I have to wonder to what extent divers are tempted to tackle such environments without the normally accepted training because the emphasis is put on TRAINING rather than requisite knowledge, skills, and abilities. Some have taken the full selection of OW related training and may feel they gained very little (other than a card) from some of that training.

The problem with talking about needing training is the old "you don't know what you don't know". When you talk about required knowledge, skills, and abilities; people can begin to understand what the don't know.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have to wonder to what extent divers are tempted to tackle such environments without the normally accepted training because the emphasis is put on TRAINING rather than requisite knowledge, skills, and abilities. Some have taken the full selection of OW related training and may feel they gained very little (other than a card) from some of that training.

I think the emphasis in OW training is on how safe things are if you just do the right things. In OW diving, the worst problem that can possibly happen to you in terms of diving (not heart attacks, etc.) can be solved through proper action.

Cave training is pretty much the opposite. If there is anything I learned in my cave training, it is how very serious the problems I may encounter can be, and if things go wrong, even doing the best job I can do might not lead to my survival. If there is a major silt-out and I lose all visibility--which may not have anything to do with anything I did--I have been well trained on how find a lost line and do and a blind exit, but I know that doing the lost line procedure correctly is no guarantee that I will find that line. Famed cave diver Parker Turner did everything he possibly could correctly and still died.

I know the procedure for searching for a lost buddy, but searching for that buddy correctly does not mean I will find him or her.

My training does tell me, though, that in almost every case of diver death in a cave, the diver failed to follow at least one of a mere handful of established protocols. In fact, some say that Parker Turner's death is the only case where that is not true. In OW diving, I can do all sorts of things wrong and still be OK because I can always bail out to the surface, and I learned how to do that in my OW training.

I know someone who was recently asked how much air he normally has when he ascends. He smiled and said, "CESA." He was only partially joking. that is the sort of OW complacency that does not translate well into the cave environment.

 

[redacted]

I fully agree with you. In fact, handling a silt out was one of the skills I had in mind when I posted. As an OW diver, I never even thought about a silt-out until I tried to remove something from a muck bottom one day and everything disappeared including my compass. But that is the kind of specifics you get into when you talk about KSAs rather than just (cave) training that should make people think.

I think the emphasis in OW training is on how safe things are if you just do the right things. In OW diving, the worst problem that can possibly happen to you in terms of diving (not heart attacks, etc.) can be solved through proper action.

Cave training is pretty much the opposite. If there is anything I learned in my cave training, it is how very serious the problems I may encounter can be, and if things go wrong, even doing the best job I can do might not lead to my survival. If there is a major silt-out and I lose all visibility--which may not have anything to do with anything I did--I have been well trained on how find a lost line and do and a blind exit, but I know that doing the lost line procedure correctly is no guarantee that I will find that line. Famed cave diver Parker Turner did everything he possibly could correctly and still died.

I know the procedure for searching for a lost buddy, but searching for that buddy correctly does not mean I will find him or her.

My training does tell me, though, that in almost every case of diver death in a cave, the diver failed to follow at least one of a mere handful of established protocols. In fact, some say that Parker Turner's death is the only case where that is not true. In OW diving, I can do all sorts of things wrong and still be OK because I can always bail out to the surface, and I learned how to do that in my OW training.

I know someone who was recently asked how much air he normally has when he ascends. He smiled and said, "CESA." He was only partially joking. that is the sort of OW complacency that does not translate well into the cave environment.

 

[SCUBASailor]

OK, here's my guess for what BWRAF means on an OW dive:
B - BCD secured
W - weighted properly
R - routing (hoses) is correct
A - air supply is adequate and turned on
F - fins, mask and snorkle? not too sure about this one.

How did I do?

 

[tkdgodess]

This is mine...

B - BCD Inflates here, deflates here (and here and here depending on gear) actually inflate & deflate
W - Weights - where the quick releases are, what type (belt/intergrated, which ones won't dump)
R - Releases - any releases or clips keeping you in your gear, or how to get it off if there aren't any
A - Air, Pressure, Nitrox MOD, Regulators both function, buddy checks tank is fully on.
F - Final OK. Check for twisted straps etc, Physical and Mental readiness (I am good to dive today or you know what, something is off, I'm not diving)