Instructors doing "trust me" dives.

[Thalassamania]

I've been giving this topic some real thought over the last day or so and I've come to the tentative conclusion that the problem is not with "trust me" dives per se, it is with the quality of discernment that the individual in the dependent position of the "trust me" dive.

Frankly, I've been, shall we say, "out of my depth," more than a few times in my life. One of the fun things was when someone would come up to me and ask, "how do we do this ... ?" Often the answer was simple, it was something I knew about, but sometimes it was new to me and I had to find out. In finding out I'd reach out to where the experts were. When we started needing to do blue water diving I looked around and there was Bill and Peggy Hamner, and Bruce Harbison and Larry Madin, all people who'd been doing it for years, with well worked out protocols and procedures that had been approved at their institutions. But when I had geologists that wanted to use scuba to sample the Krakatoa site at four to five hundred feet, on a limited budget, Richard Pyle was the lone pioneer. When someone wanted to start working under drifting ice bergs, in their cracks and crannies ... well I was able to find an individual who was experienced with that too.

But in these cases, and many others, I was (at least early in the game) in a position in which my well being was very dependent upon another and the real question in my mind was not, "can I survive this experience if the other guy has a heart attack?" but rather, "what are the odds of the other guy having a heart attack and is the other guy good enough to get us out of any problems that we might get into?"

Let's face it, every time a newbie goes to do something it is, at some level, a "trust-me" dive. Whether it is a first shore dive in a quiet lagoon or a heliox dive to 500 feet with two deco mixes, a travel mix and a bottom mix on your back. These are all "trust-me" dives where you depend on your team leader. But I think I'm a pretty good judge there, since many dives, both routine and extraordinary, require that you trust teammates with your life.

Sure, a surface supplied dive into a hot spring that requires cold water be pumped down into your suit so that you don't poach, has an added element of drama, but when you get down to brass tacks, it's just another surface-supplied dive, and your life depends on your tender, your supervisor and possibly your standby diver.

"Trust-me" dives are not the problem, the problem is that many divers lack broad enough training and experience to be able to effective perform in new and unusual circumstances and many Instructors or would be team leaders can barely take care of themselves, and crack under the burden of a dependent diver.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

The bolded statement where I have ... issue? ... confusion? ... with the "trust me" dive. You second statement almost contradicts it. No it doesn't. Re-read it.

If I go somewhere, and pay a DM / dive op to take me all the wonderful places in their locality, I expect some will be pinnacle dives -- either because of visibility, current, environment, what-have-you. The DM, as local knowledge, will brief the site and plan . . . I won't say I have no input, because I know how to say, "no". But still, it is the plan of the guy with the local experience, not mine.
Local experience? This is what you think makes him/her the expert? No. It makes them knowledgable about that particular site. Your job is to ask questions and plan your dive, even if htey are in front of you. If you blindly follow them, letting them make your dive plan and choices, then you are sheep. That is unacceptable. Unfortunately, that is exactly what these vacation only divers do.

So, it would be "trust me", in that I am accepting his knowledge and experience. Why are you accepting his knowledge and experience and abdicating your responsibility as a diver? But it is not "trust me" if it doesn't pass through my common sense filter.

You have that filter?

 

[=C=]

Some of you know this story... Early in my cave diving hobby, I followed two "friends" an hour into a cave. We never put down a reel or a line arrow. Being the newest diver, I reached thirds first. I called the dive and our leader led us out... we made a circle for about 20-25 minutes seriously lost. I knew the line arrows were going the wrong direction, but still continued to follow. When Diver #2 finally realized we were lost and conveyed that info to me I started crying. I knew the math and knew it was gonna be close. I was still crying when I finally got undressed at the truck. I'm not sure if the tears were for fear or for guilt. I had already figured out the best way to kill the other two divers for their air with the least amount of loss.

I don't do trust me dives anymore.

*PUCKER* Just reading your tale scares the hell out of me...

 

[Jax]

The bolded statement where I have ... issue? ... confusion? ... with the "trust me" dive. You second statement almost contradicts it. No it doesn't. Re-read it.

If I go somewhere, and pay a DM / dive op to take me all the wonderful places in their locality, I expect some will be pinnacle dives -- either because of visibility, current, environment, what-have-you. The DM, as local knowledge, will brief the site and plan . . . I won't say I have no input, because I know how to say, "no". But still, it is the plan of the guy with the local experience, not mine.
Local experience? This is what you think makes him/her the expert? No. It makes them knowledgable about that particular site. Your job is to ask questions and plan your dive, even if htey are in front of you. If you blindly follow them, letting them make your dive plan and choices, then you are sheep. That is unacceptable. Unfortunately, that is exactly what these vacation only divers do.

So, it would be "trust me", in that I am accepting his knowledge and experience. Why are you accepting his knowledge and experience and abdicating your responsibility as a diver? But it is not "trust me" if it doesn't pass through my common sense filter.

You have that filter?

Someone thinks I wouldn't be asking questions? What?

Y'know, this is a funny turn. In another thread, I was being chided from several sides because I don't "take advice" from those who consider themselves knowledgeable, and that I question the advice.

Now here, I am accepting the advice of a local's knowledge and experience - passed through my knowledge and experience filter (better?) and I am being chided for that.

Just for the record, I never abdicate responsibility for myself. Ever.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

We know. What about, this time?

 

[Jax]

We know. What about, this time?

Wow, Dee, what's up?

 

[TSandM]

I don't see why doing a guided dive is a "trust-me" dive, any more than getting into the water at ANY unfamiliar site is. And with a guided dive, you probably have more information about the profile and water conditions than you have when you try someplace new. For any dive, I gather the data I can -- entry and exit conditions, specific hazards like nets or line or current, navigation cues, depth and profile shape -- and then decide if this is a dive I want to do or not. We do a lot of dives off charter boats off the West Coast where no one from the charter operator gets in the water with the divers, so you are on your own. If a guide went with us, would that make it more of a trust-me dive, or less?

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Someone thinks I wouldn't be asking questions? What?

Y'know, this is a funny turn. In another thread, I was being chided from several sides because I don't "take advice" from those who consider themselves knowledgeable, and that I question the advice.

Now here, I am accepting the advice of a local's knowledge and experience - passed through my knowledge and experience filter (better?) and I am being chided for that.

Just for the record, I never abdicate responsibility for myself. Ever.

For some reason, earlier, all I got was the smiley.

What chiding? I am answering your statements. Accepting advice of a local's knowledge and experience, is one thing. Letting them lead, and you following them without planning on your part, is sheep behavior. I have never told you to let a DM or local plan your dive and make all the decisions and lead you.

When I travel to a new dive spot, I ask the local about the conditions- depth, current, dangerous sea life of that area, laws and regulations, boat rules, etc. If it is a place that you are on a DM led dive, I usually avoid those. If I am stuck with it, I ask the same questions. I navigate separately from him/her. I plan my max depth, time, and focus for the dive. I refuse to give anyone the blind trust that you seemed to think a guide or local DM should have. I want the boat briefing and the site briefing. And I will never blindly hop in the water for a, " just follow me and turn off your brain dive."

 

[Jax]

And I will never blindly hop in the water for a, " just follow me and turn off your brain dive."

Borrowing your line for an illustration, Dee -

Where does a newb learn that? On this thread alone, the definition of a trust-me dive varies somewhat wildly.

I can say my dive-buddy is a 'trust-me' diver as I've heard him say, "I trust <name> to not get me into trouble." Maybe it's because I select the dive ops, and they're good about ascertaining our level.

I've learned a lot from ScubaBoard, and I would not follow a DM into a wreck - but there was a time when I would have . . . So how would a newb learn that, if s/he is a vacation diver?

 

[Jax]

Last week I did a solo, sidemount dive wearing a drysuit.

Don't have training in any of those things.

Who was I trusting?

Darn it . . . You're gonna die!

There, I feel better; it's said! Who won the pool?